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RNG Manipulation

Discussion about this excellent Game Gear RPG.

RNG Manipulation

Postby DarkKobold » Mon Apr 18 2011 10:54pm

I've attempted to look into this game for TASing (Tool Assisted Speedrunning). However, I've noticed that the RNG (Random Number Generator) always seems to stay the same, there appears to be no way to affect the outcome. In other words, if you load a state before a character gets a miss, no matter what you do, other than ending that characters turn, and waiting for the next one, will result in a miss.

Also, I'm playing on the translated version, I doubt it, but perhaps RNG movement was removed to make room for extra text?
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby sulfuroxp » Mon Apr 18 2011 11:07pm

lol this happen in many shining games
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Sinful Force » Tue Apr 19 2011 12:52am

Not like in this game. So no. You misunderstood DarkKobold.

In SF1, for example, I think you have to have to unselsct who your about to hit to chnage the range of miss, critical, or whatever. In this game, you can go as far as unselecting your character and you still can't change the range of a miss/critical/etc. your character is about to do when he attacks or get's attacked.

The only way to deal with this in SF FC & abuse it via state saves, is to state save before a character's turn comes up. So save before attacking with the previous character's turn. And thus play with the timing of when you'd attack with that character to change the range. I think this works? Though there is a very slight chance I could be wrong too? Since I haven't really abused this or anything outside of just testing it once when I noticed this during my one & only playthrough of this game.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby DarkKobold » Wed Apr 20 2011 1:56am

Sinful force, if that works, I will love you forever. I'll give that a test.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Sinful Force » Wed Apr 20 2011 5:54am

Yeah, well, I guess if that works, a re-upload of your SiTD Editor would be nice (I bumbed the topic with the Editor for this in the SiTD forum area) and very appreciated by me. But if it doesn't work, well, it be very nice of you anyways if you could, and you would have my many thanks in return.

Regardless, I hope it works & wish you luck, because I'm pretty sure it worked for me?
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby DarkKobold » Fri May 06 2011 3:25am

Sinful Force wrote:Yeah, well, I guess if that works, a re-upload of your SiTD Editor would be nice (I bumbed the topic with the Editor for this in the SiTD forum area) and very appreciated by me. But if it doesn't work, well, it be very nice of you anyways if you could, and you would have my many thanks in return.

Regardless, I hope it works & wish you luck, because I'm pretty sure it worked for me?



I tried this, to no avail. It sadly appears that this game uses a very static random number generator. No TAS for me.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Sinful Force » Fri May 06 2011 4:03am

What do you mean? I'm playing thius game right now, and I recall testing it myself and was able to change a miss into a hit, a non-critical to be a critical, and vice versa for both, etc. So in other words it works, as long as you do it a turn in advance while playing with the timing. What else are you looking to change? (Don't think I've tested for AI RNG, but it should work too) Or what's the misunderstanding I'm having here?... Or am did I miss something doing that test?

But either way, if you are doing a tool assited run, those I just mentioned should help greatly allready.

EDIT!!!!!!!! son of a .... well get this, I messed around with this a bit just now when I came across a perfect save state to test this. Here is the setup; Turn 1; I use an archer to heal my flying dragon; Turn 2; I move galdiator anywhere and do nothing; Turn 3; I use ninja to attack a harpy enemy = a miss & a counter-attack from the enemy!! Now I go back to my original state at turn 1 and heal at a different time, move galdiator anywhere and do nothing, and I still end up with same results at turn 3. So next a make another save state at turn 2 and play with timing... nothing changed for turn 3... then I play with where i move him... nothing... then i make him use a herb on someone... nothing... then, get this, at some point I go back to turn 1 and decide same things here, and guess what?... At turn 1 if I made the archer not heal the flying dragon guy (or herself or anybody else + at whatever time), actually changed the results for turn 3!?!!! :eyebrow: having the archer in turn 1 using the healing herb on anybody ended with same result in turn 3.

So yeah, it's whatever you do 2 turns ahead that changes the results for present turn, and bnthing to do with timing. So yeah, have fun playing with that, lol (in short, I'm not sure if a good enough TAS can be done. I'll let you figure that out now that I've clarified this). Plus sorry for leading you on the wrong track there, I should have tested this in a more controlled enviromnet type thing before telling you about it (it's just that I knew something worked).... and thanks again for fixing those links to your Editor.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby DarkKobold » Tue May 17 2011 1:44am

Sinful Force wrote:So yeah, it's whatever you do 2 turns ahead that changes the results for present turn, and bnthing to do with timing. So yeah, have fun playing with that, lol (in short, I'm not sure if a good enough TAS can be done. I'll let you figure that out now that I've clarified this). Plus sorry for leading you on the wrong track there, I should have tested this in a more controlled enviromnet type thing before telling you about it (it's just that I knew something worked).... and thanks again for fixing those links to your Editor.


What you are seeing is a sequential RNG in action. Essentially, the Random Number Generator is just a list of numbers, and once it uses a number to determine a 'random' effect, it steps to the next number. Once it hits the bottom of the list, it loops back to the top.

In your case, it isn't the turn difference, it is the difference in actions. For example, you mention at one point you heal, and another time you don't. That is because healing requires RNG steps, to determine things like amount to heal, and also possibly EXP. Your character in the middle does nothing, so he requires no execution of the RNGs.

Shining Force II uses a sequential RNG as well, but the nice thing about it is that the RNG steps once per frame (the genesis outputs 60 frames per second) while a menu or text box is open. This means that the action can be manipulated by how long the menu is kept open.

A stepwise RNG that only steps when an action is taken is painful, because it can't be manipulated without extreme planning, or wasting large amounts of time on useless actions. Also note that battle order will use up RNG steps.

This is what I was afraid of. :(
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Martin III » Thu May 19 2011 10:53pm

DarkKobold wrote:Shining Force II uses a sequential RNG as well, but the nice thing about it is that the RNG steps once per frame (the genesis outputs 60 frames per second) while a menu or text box is open. This means that the action can be manipulated by how long the menu is kept open.


Interesting. I was under the impression that SF2's RNG worked the same as the variety you describe elsewhere in your post. The funny thing is, I can see this actually making it harder to exploit the RNG for someone who doesn't know how to use the tools typically used in TASs.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Volyren Nightsong » Mon Sep 17 2012 4:27pm

Im not big on TAS, but I noticed the same thing while trying to keep a few characters from dying. Also of note, the level up stats also follow a similar "two steps before" RNG technique.
For instance, the levelup works the same as in the genesis SF games, meaning it depends on the time the window is open. However, I've extensively saved and reloaded states, and discovered that you must save the state, either before, or right as the text begins to inform you of the ammount of experience gained. (in the genesis versions, you could save state on the "xxxx has become level Y!" screen.) If you save state while on the exp earned screen, you will be hard pressed to get a different outcome. But if you save right before that (or as I usually do, right after damage is dealt) and just hold the button down to speed through text, you can generally achieve different results by jamming on the direction pad while holding down the A button (button 1, or whatever its called).
I used this method so that I would not have to wait-test-load-wait-test-load in a endless loop. (as far as i can recall, its been a few weeks) As for the missing/critical hit always going the same way, You don't have to go 2 actions back. I save before the last character exits battle/healing, etc. (on the gold acquired screen, for instance) and after reloading, the RNG has changed. I've definately used this to avoid bats putting me to sleep, double attacks, characters missing, and many other bothersome results.
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Nash Vegas » Thu Nov 13 2014 11:34pm

Hmmm so zohaa it seems that either you are a bot or a very random person. I saw this same post from Caedmon on this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23192
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Re: RNG Manipulation

Postby Caedmonball19 » Tue Nov 18 2014 3:51pm

That does look awfully familiar to me :)
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