Shining Ark: Shining Ark

[chevkraken]

Well, they chose the PSP. That's their mistake.

It's not a mistake, it was a reasonnable strategic decision.

their last Shining on DS have been an enormous failure. same thing for their 3DS titles, even Sakura wars 5 on Wii was a failure. Except for Sonic fan, the public of Sega is not on Nintendo consoles.

Shining is not big enough for PS3/360/Wii U and PSvita is not enough popular for now.

PSP was the only viable option, especially because Sega have a very big fanbase on PSP (Yakuza/Miku/PSP/Valkyria)

1. That should be an instant red flag to SEGA that substance is more vital than appearance,

I don't want games with poor graphic, I never buy a game on new gen with PSX graphic more than 20€, except if their is an enormous collector edition.

Actually if Segafan love sega games, It's because Sega always made High production games. the Shining force 3 graphique were stunning. Valkyria Chroclicles is the most beautiful tactical RPg ever (and one of the best). Shenmue was one of the most beautiful games of his time.
Sakura wars 3 and 4 had stunning graphics
Shining force and Force 2 were the most beautiful tactical RPG in their time.
Shining Tears and Wind are some of the most beautiful 2D games from the PS2.

Sega stopping doing very beautiful games, will be the loss of their soul.

And the subtance of Sega games is also very big, the GBA/PS2 shining were very good in their style (hack n slash). Anarchy reign, Sonic generation/Sonic colors, Valkyria Chronicles, Miku, Rythm thief, platinium games and Yakuza series too.

Sega just nearly always made high production solid in graphic and gameplay, Sega not doing this will just be Sega anymore.
They already said it, they don't want to make low cost production, it's not their politics.

SEGA is much larger and well known than the company that created/published Agarest. They have more revenue from their long established reign

but they also have much more cost, don't forget it.

Even Namco bandai hesitate to release some of the Tales of out from japan.

But It's stupid to talk of it. You are talking like a fan who would love to see his series in US at any cost. I am talking like a marketer.

By a marketer view, Sega decision is pretty logical judging the size of the licence if they still want to make high prod.

Let's Stop talking about it, I'll never agree with you for it

[Chaos Wizard]

I'll actually say that I probably favor the PSP over the Xbox 360, but I would certainly like to see a Shining game on a console rather than the PSP, but there are certainly some solid titles.

Not enough original titles for the Vita to make me go out and buy one. Half of those games are available on the PS3 virtual market for less than they are priced on the Vita.

[Kalkano]

I haven changed my argument, my argument were wrong but the conclusion don't match with the Kalkano argument, so his argument were wrong

No the US fans are not more into the RPG than the japanese and not, the quantity of JRPG release in japan don't make the sales lower.

Japanese fans are still the biggest consumer of JRPG.

I never said the US fans were more into JRPGs. My argument was only that we get less JRPGs here, so when we finally get one, most of us (english-speaking JRPG fans) will buy it.

Think of it like this. A decent JRPG is released in Japan, and has decent sales. That same game is released in the US, and sells better than it did in Japan. Why? It's not because it was a great game, and it's not because we are bigger JRPG fans. It's because there aren't a lot of other options, for us.

[Chaos Wizard]

Admittedly a lot of the time if I even see a nifty looking console RPG I'm half tempted to just buy it with that kind of thought process. So I can certainly relate to the above mentioned.

[Stordarth]

It's not a mistake, it was a reasonnable strategic decision.

their last Shining on DS have been an enormous failure. same thing for their 3DS titles, even Sakura wars 5 on Wii was a failure. Except for Sonic fan, the public of Sega is not on Nintendo consoles.

Shining is not big enough for PS3/360/Wii U and PSvita is not enough popular for now.

PSP was the only viable option, especially because Sega have a very big fanbase on PSP (Yakuza/Miku/PSP/Valkyria)

Agarest was a new IP. New IPs are always riskier than established franchises. So let's acknowledge the truth here - SEGA have lost their bottle. They're so scared to take any form of risk. Why? Because they can't market worth a damn and make mistake after mistake and no longer trust themselves.

I don't want games with poor graphic, I never buy a game on new gen with PSX graphic more than 20€, except if their is an enormous collector edition.

Actually if Segafan love sega games, It's because Sega always made High production games. the Shining force 3 graphique were stunning. Valkyria Chroclicles is the most beautiful tactical RPg ever (and one of the best). Shenmue was one of the most beautiful games of his time.
Sakura wars 3 and 4 had stunning graphics
Shining force and Force 2 were the most beautiful tactical RPG in their time.
Shining Tears and Wind are some of the most beautiful 2D games from the PS2.

Sega stopping doing very beautiful games, will be the loss of their soul.

And the subtance of Sega games is also very big, the GBA/PS2 shining were very good in their style (hack n slash). Anarchy reign, Sonic generation/Sonic colors, Valkyria Chronicles, Miku, Rythm thief, platinium games and Yakuza series too.

Sega just nearly always made high production solid in graphic and gameplay, Sega not doing this will just be Sega anymore.
They already said it, they don't want to make low cost production, it's not their politics.

Graphics do not a good game make. They help, if what comes with them include solid mechanics, a decent story/narrative/premise, and a fun concept. Their unwillingness to branch out into this 'retro' style of game is a huge missed opportunity for them. The indie market is proof that such games will sell with the right marketing.

but they also have much more cost, don't forget it.

I didn't forget it. in fact, I implied this very fact by noting the proportionality of the compay size/reputation/cost. They are equivalent, just at different scales.

Even Namco bandai hesitate to release some of the Tales of out from japan.

But It's stupid to talk of it. You are talking like a fan who would love to see his series in US at any cost. I am talking like a marketer.

By a marketer view, Sega decision is pretty logical judging the size of the licence if they still want to make high prod.

Let's Stop talking about it, I'll never agree with you for it

Ignoring the fact the game releasing in the U.S. would mean absolutely nothing to me, and the fact that 'talking like a marketer' somehow means your words are more valid than someone who 'talks like a fan', it's still not a good decision. The license was niche, and then they changed the game's fundamentals with their reboot in order to appeal to a wider audience - and then don't release to a wider audience.

You see what I'm saying? Even if you are talking about it from a marketing standpoint, it's still an illogical marketing standpoint. Talking as a fan doesn't make my opinion any less logical.

tl;dr version: SEGA need to stop being a bunch of scaredy-cats and try new things, including making some good marketing decisions.

[Omega Entity]

A marketer would be looking for ways to expand their customer base, i.e., making good decisions regarding how they market their games. Releasing them with little or no advertising, and then complaining that a certain market is failing because they didn't advertise, is the sign of a poor marketer. Likewise, ignoring a fanbase, changing a series to appeal to a larger market, then refusing to market to said larger market is downright stupid, as Stor has pointed out.

Honestly, if you're 'talking like a marketer', you're not any kind of competent marketer, and certainly not one I'd hire, even at cut-rate prices.

[Stordarth]

On the other hand, he'd fit right in at SEGA.


Waitaminute...

[Bolt]

Actually if Segafan love sega games, It's because Sega always made High production games. the Shining force 3 graphique were stunning. Valkyria Chroclicles is the most beautiful tactical RPg ever (and one of the best). Shenmue was one of the most beautiful games of his time.
Sakura wars 3 and 4 had stunning graphics
Shining force and Force 2 were the most beautiful tactical RPG in their time.
Shining Tears and Wind are some of the most beautiful 2D games from the PS2.

Sega stopping doing very beautiful games, will be the loss of their soul.

Actually, as a Sega fan myself, even now despite their recent fumbling, I can honestly say it wasn't the graphics that made me love Sega's games. Nintendo is just as capable of making beautiful games, and has on countless occasions. What made me love Sega was their innovation.

Nintendo found a market it liked - family-friendly games - and pretty much stuck with it. Sega never really had a set market. They tried anything, and that resulted in plenty of unique and fun games all over the genre spectrum. Sure, it resulted in some lame games too, but such is the way of innovation. "Failure is the condiment which gives success its' flavor."

Sega, in my eyes, has always been a company of risk-takers. One needs only look at the Dreamcast to see that. They took a huge risk in sinking their own current-gen console to try to shake up the "new console cycle". Did it shoot them in the foot? Hell yes, it shot them in the foot. But they tried. Botched risks happen. You learn from them, and keep on trying.

That's where Sega's failing, in my opinion. They've become afraid of risk. They're sticking to what's relatively safe, and suffering because of it. Risk has been Sega's venue for success, and they need to get back to it.

Make innovative games! Don't be afraid to step outside the "current trend". Trendy games are everywhere. People will appreciate something different. And send games outside Japan! Will they all be hits? Unlikely, but some most certainly will be, and that's better than the slim-to-none going now. Sega fans still exist all around the world. They should be capitalized upon, not shunned.

By the Gods! I'm talking like a marketer and a fan! Who'd have thought they weren't mutually exclusive?

[Omega Entity]

The reason why they shot themselves in the foot, however, wasn't because they tried something new. It was because once they released their last two systems (Saturn, and then Dreamcast), they didn't give them the software support they needed to succeed. They went into it with the mentality that their products would sell themselves, an 'if we build it, they will come' mentality, but you can't just toss a product out there and not back it up. Even before those two systems, they had the same issues with the Sega CD and 32x - the hardware was there, but the software wasn't.

[Bolt]

Too true! Can't really comment on the 32X or Sega CD as I was a poor child who didn't have the money to shell out for Genesis add-ons, but the "sinking their current console" bit certainly screwed them with the Saturn and Dreamcast. Ticked off a lot of their developers and made them out to be unstable. If they'd hung onto the Saturn like S*ny did with the PS2 and given both proper support, I imagine it probably would've worked out better for them.

[Omega Entity]

If they managed the Saturn over here as they did in Japan, I imagine that they'd quite possibly still be in the hardware business. The Saturn had a ridiculously long lifespan over there. But as has been shown time and again, Sega just isn't interested in creating and maintaining any markets outside of Japan. Perhaps it's xenophobia, perhaps it's just a general overall dislike of the west in general, maybe it's the cultural differences, with Japan not wanting to produce games with more appeal. Which goes back to chevkraken's argument - if the newer Shining games are truly an attempt to make the games appeal to a broader audience, why are they refusing to market those games to that broader audience that they're supposedly trying to appeal to? It makes no sense. If they're trying to appeal to a broader market, then they're only trying to appeal to a broader Japanese market, and assuming that everyone outside of Japan is content with the crap and tablescraps that they toss them. Which, I think it's pretty obvious isn't sufficient. That Sega's only getting by isn't the fault of the fanbase, or even the regular consumer, it's in their attitude and marketing practices outside of Japan.

Companies exist to make money, and with the market being as global as it is, refusing to embrace those external markets is the path to failure. By sticking mainly to one market, and not trying to garner a following in others, it only results in causing the Japanese game market to stagnate, at least as far as Sega is concerned.

Editing in to add, S*ny is making a lot of the same mistakes Sega made, in their hardware support when it comes to handhelds. Their history with handhelds seems to almost mirror that of Sega's console history, with the exception that they didn't pull the plug on them quite so early. The PSP is immensely popular in Japan with software production still going strong, but the system really didn't do all that well over here, and is essentially dead outside of a stray title here or there. The PSP Go was a marketing disaster - who wants to 'upgrade' to a system that not only won't play the games they already had for the original systems, but would also force them to repurchase the downloads for the games they already bought, and that's if their even available? Because, let's face it, most of, and some of the best of, the PSP's library isn't even available for digital download. The Vita has also had lackluster sales, and very little in the way of software support. Just like Sega and their later consoles, they refuse to give their handhelds the love in the west, that they get in Japan, and it really, really shows.

[Chaos Wizard]

I think the dreamcast could have done better I think if they would have held off a bit as the PS2 Hypetrain was already in full swing.

The initial sales were actually good despite game developers holding off franchises, and titles waiting for the release of the PS2, but as the Christmas season and the release of the PS2 approached, not to mention those withheld contracts Sega got the fuckage. If I'm not mistaken the Dreamcast was a more capable console than the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube. They just didn't corner a market, and tried to jump ahead of the competition and screwed themselves.

The Saturn was flat out rushed, and could have been better. Granted it still slayed the Atari Jaguar, and could have held out against the N64, but had they waited they might have faired a little better against the PSX. Then again the PSX kicked a lot of ass for it's full duration despite not having any of the fun kind of titles we enjoyed from the NES, and Megadrive/Genesis, and SNES to a lesser extent. SNES obviously had some cool titles, but their release strategy and style was a little different. In those days I didn't even have to think about where I felt Sega was in the console war. They had way more titles I wanted to play consistently. They don't seem have that same kind of mentality after that particular generation however. I think a lot of that had to do with the age demographic. But hey here I am pushing 30, and I would still like to see some more colorful, and fun titles. I honestly think that's why Nintendo still fairs well, and why I'm still interested in some of their titles. Though most of what's come out on the Wii strikes me as half hearted titles.

We are getting totally off topic...

I should mention once again the Vita doesn't have shit for titles. I would have definitely bought one given my love for the PSP, but that even kinda burnt out later on though it started off with some great titles. FFVII Crisis Core, God of War: Chains of Olympus, the Star Ocean ports, Tekken: Dark Ressurrection was a better presentation than the console Tekken 5. Star Wars: Force Unleashed had features that were exclusive to Xbox, so technically it was a better release than than the Wii, PS2 and PS3 versions.

[chevkraken]

It was because once they released their last two systems (Saturn, and then Dreamcast), they didn't give them the software support they needed to succeed.

How can you tell that?

Do you know how many games Sega released for these 2 console? Sega released much more game on thse 2 support than nintendo for the N64 or S*ny for the PSX

No the reasons is not here, the reason is that out of Sega, Atlus and Capcom, Very few big japanese editor worked on saturn.

The absence of Namco on Saturn have been really hard for the console (same Thing for Square enix). The exclusivity of the resident evil series for PSX after the 1 too.

The Saturn was flat out rushed, and could have been better.

Saturn was a very powerful engine, but not for 3D. Don't forget that the Saturn is a far superior 2D engine than the PSX.
And even for the 3D, have you seen the Saturn Demo of Shenmue. Very impressive and not very far from PSX 3D.

if the newer Shining games are truly an attempt to make the games appeal to a broader audience, why are they refusing to market those games to that broader audience that they're supposedly trying to appeal to

Because the US and European audience don't want this (as they don't want oldschool too, because ROTDD didn't sell).


But the japanese audience have been very receptive(while oldschool Shining were not anymore popular). Actually Shining Ark is the 10th most awaited game in japan in the Famitsu most wanted of this week.

And last year, Blade was in 4th

Actually dont forget japanese ans US market are different and it's impossible to plently satsify the 2 market.

the licence is just not popular in US and have never been very popular. Shining always been serie for japaneses otaku.

the rarety of the western version of every Shining game is a proof of it.

Shining force 2 PAL(the biggest sale of the oldschool Shining) is sold at the same price than the French version of Secret of mana (Who only made 20000 sales)

Even of the US version is sold at a better price, is sold to the same price than game sold around 50/70000 sales.

So we could estimate the number of sales of the licence in the west to around 100000 for the biggest sale of the licence.
And I don't think there is more than 15000 Shining force 3 pal judging from his price.

Really a little licence in the West.

[Omega Entity]

When we say it didn't get much support, we're referring to here, in the West. Japan's support for those systems is irrelevant in this discussion, because it's an entirely different region, and we are not in that region. If we lived in Japan, we wouldn't be talking about lack of support, now would we?

It's already been established, more than once, that the systems were well-supported in Japan, but not in the West, if not in this thread than in others. Please read, and apply stated and established information when you go into know-it-all mode. You're not saying anything new, just rehashing what's already been said.

[chevkraken]

no, it's never been etablished.What you said is false. I just seen you are not aware that Sega released most of their saturn and dreamcast games in west.
You talke about thing you don't know.

Between 1995 and 1998 Sega published 60 games in west for the Saturn and 80 for japan so 75% of their japanese games have been ported in US or EU by them. they even published or made the some games from other develloper for EU (King of fighter/Riven)

And let's not forget some of the game they published came in US with the help of working design (Magic Knight Rayearth/Dragon force).

And between 1998 and 2001, sega published 72 games for the dreamcast in west.

I don't call these don't support their system.

Nintendo only published 44 games for N64 in west between 1996 and 2001. This is not supporting their system.

It's true, on Dreamcast, Sega published 118 games in japan during these time but 46 of them where dating sims or/and games based on manga or anime movie (Oh my goddess, hello Kitty, Love hina, Doraemon, Onsen simulation, Sakura wars, idol managment) and 2 other of them are horse racing simulation.

Game based on anime and manga is very difficult, because they needed the approval of the anime studio and manga editor, if the anime is really know in west, the studio give their approval(like one piece or DBZ), if not, they don't make it.
And I don't think games like idol, hotspring and horse racing managment would have been a good idea is a big absence on west.

Sure I can complain about Sakura wars, Puyo puyo or maybe world wars series and few games like Princess Crown, Dragon Force 2 and Shining force 3 scenario 2 and 3.But they are the only big Sega games did'nt released in west on Saturn.

Sega can't do anything for the game made by capcom or Konam or another publisher. If Capcom, Konami or some other don't want to port his Saturn games in west, it's not the fault of Sega.
Sega have supported his system, other devellopper not. The problem is here.

The problem always been here even for megaCD and 32X (and even megadrive and Master system),

20 of the 34 32X games where published by Sega(and all of them were released in US)

And sega published 49 Sega CD games in US, their only fault have been to not publish 7 japanese exclusive RPG is west but 3 of them where based on anime licence, so... (Lodoss, 3x3 eyes and Arslan saga). I Still dont call it don't suporting their system.

Stop complaining about Sega complain about other editor who never supported the sega consoles.


But for coming back to the Subject

In the most wanted Famitsu from this week, Shining Ark was Ranked 10.

And Sega released new infos about the quest of the game.

-the game will have a night/day cycle and somes quest will be present only at some moment of the day/night.

-there will be fishing, rebuilding and harversting quest in the town.

Ranah Elwing (from Tears/Wind/Hearts and Blade) will be present as NPC (her new design is too much sexy, I don't like it)

13 other character are still to be revealated

1 exclusive playable character would be on the first press opening single as a DLC code

1 other will be on the limited edition of the game (the character is from Wind and Heart and will not be included on the storyline)

Some battle and new infos about battle have been confirmated.

-only 4 character will be playable in same time (and one of them will be played by the IA following our act during quest and dating phase)

-the battle areas are far bigger than into blade

-combo attack with 3 character will be possible (2 only in blade).

and the graphic are really superior to blade too

[Omega Entity]

Uh, bullshit. They were still producing games for the Saturn -long- after the death of Saturn over here.

[ehow22]

linky

The point is they stopped supporting their consoles here long before they did so in Japan.

[Lord Oddeye sama]

-the game will have a night/day cycle and somes quest will be present only at some moment of the day/night.

Realtime like in Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal or strictly in-game time like in Legend of Zelda : Ocarina of Time?

[Bolt]

The absence of Namco on Saturn have been really hard for the console (same Thing for Square enix). The exclusivity of the resident evil series for PSX after the 1 too.

Resident Evil was never a PS exclusive. 2 was ported to the N64, and both 2 and 3 were ported to the Dreamcast. Code: Veronica was even released on the Dreamcast first and later ported to the PS2. A port of 2 was originally planned for the Saturn, but Sega opted to kick it over to the Dreamcast already in development at the time. Sorry, but you can't pin the blame on Capcom here - they always planned RE to be a multi-console series from the start, to get it out to the broadest audience possible.

On-Topic:
The size of the playable party is a bit...disappointing. And why is the fourth AI-only? Would having all four playable really be all that unbalancing?

[chevkraken]

The point is they stopped supporting their consoles here long before they did so in Japan.

What do you want to prove with your link? That some devellopers still released games for saturn and didn't released them? It's true.

But games made by other devellloper are not sega games, if the devellopper don't want to port it in the west, it's not the fault of Sega.

Sega have supported the Saturn, other develloper, no.

During the whole life of the console, Sega didn't released only 20 of their 80 games in the west, and 4 of these games have been ported by Working design

Sega have continued to release game in West until november 98 (Burning Ranger, Deep Fear)

The only games Sega didn't released out of Japan since end of 97 are:

Princess crown (Atlus copro, they can't choose to port the game alone)
Sakura wars 2(dating sim)
Dragon Force 2
Shining force III scenario 2 and 3
Extreme snow board
Wachenröder

7 games only

but games like Last bronx, Burning Ranger, Deep Fear, Shining force 3 scenario 1 or Panzer Dragoon Saga were still released in West in 1998

They were still producing games for the Saturn -long- after the death of Saturn over here.

No, Sega didn't supported Saturn long time after the west. Except a late port ofSonic 3D blast(in 1999), the last game released in japan by Sega for the saturn was Shining force 3 scenario 3. in september of 1998, they stopped to support the saturn when the dreamcast was released even in japan.

The Saturn was Dead for Sega, they supported the Dreamcast, which is logical, Nintendo made the same thing with the gamecube, Microsoft with the Xbox et S*ny with the PSP (S*ny didn't released any game for the PSP after the release of the Vita)

Resident Evil was never a PS exclusive. 2 was ported to the N64, and both 2 and 3 were ported to the Dreamcast. Code: Veronica was even released on the Dreamcast first and later ported to the PS2. A port of 2 was originally planned for the Saturn, but Sega opted to kick it over to the Dreamcast already in development at the time. Sorry, but you can't pin the blame on Capcom here - they always planned RE to be a multi-console series from the start, to get it out to the broadest audience possible.

ok, sorry, I was wrong.

It's true capcom is not an editor to blame(not like konami), but Sega is not in fault neither. Sega even released Deep Fear for the fan of survival horror who couldn't play to RE2 on Saturn.

and On topic

Realtime like in Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal or strictly in-game time like in Legend of Zelda : Ocarina of Time?

I don't really know, like Ocarina, I suppose.

The size of the playable party is a bit...disappointing.

Yes, I agree with it. We see here the limit of the PSP. Even if Shining Ark is one of the 10 most beautiful game on the system, the PSP is not a PS2

As I said, the area are big, very detailled, fully loaded without any fog to hide some element. Same thing for the ennemies (who are all animated during every phase)

Some ennemies on the screen are very big and usebig amout of ressource of the console.

Shining blade was already not very smooth with 5 playable character in same time (and 4,5 ennemies on screen), so I think they made Shining ark only with 4 playable character to optimizing the graphic.

I really await that the serie come on PSvita for big party with 10 members in same times and enormous battlefield

And why is the fourth AI-only?Would having all four playable really be all that unbalancing?

I don't think it's a balance problem
Because her gameplay will be a pet system. if you are bad at the dating system, the character will hate you and will doing bad support....
If the system is well made, it could be very interesting