Shining Force II Hacking: [hack] SF2 - RETURN TO GRANS

[greyskies]

Thanks for this first retelling, MXC :) The difficulty should ramp up a bit more after the first few battles on Parmecia, I'll be interested to hear if its still a cakewalk for you then. Maybe you guys are cut out from a tougher cloth than I am...

The dock area changed while fleeing Granseal. Was this intentional?

No, but the "Escape" map is one of those which break when edited in the Caravan, sadly.

[MXC]

I've played this game a lot, and done many challenges/ played hard mods before, so I've got the experience Don't get me wrong, it has been tough in places, but nothing I can't handle...yet. I am very curious to see these promotions though! I was going to post after I got to that point but my workload just skyrocketed, so I'll have to take a bit of a break. My update is below.

Spoiler

Battle 8 - Business as usual.
Granseal looks good on the outside. I never liked the overworld icon.
Battle 9 - I can deal with AI Peter just fine, but I hate this mechanic. Battle was normal.
Battle 10 - Normal.
Battle 11 - Man, this cave is still dark? Dang.
Battle 12 - Evil Cloud using Gale? Not cool! Actually, it is, I just didn't check for it lol
lol at Playbird
Battle 13 - Spawning enemies. Yay. I'm getting really tired of poison taking my kill exp though! This battle was tough, and not for the usual zombie reason (I think I only let one get an attack off.) Slade's poison killed two enemies, which resulted in Kazin not getting a level and getting taken to 1 HP. Easily could have lost him.
Battle 14 - Normal.
Battle 15 - Normal.
Battle 16 - Kraken was a nightmare. I split my forces on the left side and that went really well, but I like the challenge of killing the whole beast, and that got me in trouble. I had to burn through my seeds pretty quickly and to make sure nobody died, I went ahead and killed the head with an arm and two legs remaining.
Ready to get my first Running Pimento aaaaaaaand it's an accessory that hurts my defense. Not cool! Also, finally, the Pegasus Wing someplace early in the game.

[greyskies]

Don't get me wrong, it has been tough in places, but nothing I can't handle...yet.

Mh, I'm curious to see how you'll fare in the final battles after the return to Grans (cue theme music). Although I'm not sure it'll get tougher than the Kraken, higher ATT scaling of enemies without weapons and all.

lol at Playbird

I hid most of the stupid humor in books. There should be some more coming :)

I'm getting really tired of poison taking my kill exp though! This battle was tough, and not for the usual zombie reason (I think I only let one get an attack off.) Slade's poison killed two enemies, which resulted in Kazin not getting a level and getting taken to 1 HP. Easily could have lost him.

Uh, you're not doing a zero deaths run as well, are you?
Yeah, that aspect of the poison is a bit annoying - but then again, if a monster died from poisoning, it means that it was about to take another turn, which can end badly ;) I also believe you're about to reach the point where kill XP stops mattering all that much since you never gain the full 49 anyway.

Ready to get my first Running Pimento aaaaaaaand it's an accessory that hurts my defense. Not cool!

Couldn't make it even easier for you, could I? ;P

[MXC]

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid having any deaths. When a monster dies from poison, it means it just went, which should mean that I have a while until it goes again and can get EXP to someone that needs it. Oh well, all part of the strategy!

Spoiler

Battle 17 - Soulsower's special attack! Sneaky! Otherwise, normal.

Battle 18 - Typical Taros. I always enjoy this battle but find it less challenging than I- hey, weird enemies!
Neat! Even better, I just Desoul'd one of them I don't normally use the Power Ring but it's a good thing I did here!

Everyone gets to level 20, thanks to the new enemies. Good job on that!

And finally, I can clear out my inventory!

Rick joins, sweet. Really should raise his starting level to 20 though

Now, on to promotions. I'm torn on whether I should play like normal or randomize. I think I'll do a bit of both. I'll make Kazin a SORC, Elric a BRGN, and randomize the rest. Results: Sarah MMNK, Chester PGNT, Jaha, BRN, Rick, PLDN. Looks like everyone got to use the special promotion, but that really was just the coin coming up heads each time. Still, it's different for me since Jaha normally goes GLDT and Rick goes PGNT.

A few notes on characters before they go down their new paths:

I had the Power Ring on Kiwi before promotion. It looks like he's not supposed to be able to equip it, but since he already was, he's still getting the bonus. He'll keep it until he becomes disposable.

Chester is not hitting hard and it's kind of a bummer. I was hoping Rick had something going for him more than Chester, but his 1 ATT and DEF hardly make up for Chester's 10 HP. They'll both be around for a few levels though so we'll see how things shake out. I also just realized that PGNT gets docked a MOV. Double bummer.

I had considered rolling the dice on Kazin being a WIZ but having Dao for the Harpy Pool is so nice. If I knew his spell progression, I might be more inclined to go the WIZ route but I know he's a good SORC anyway.

Slade seems like a harder hitting version of his normal self, so that's nice.

Kiwi will still probably be first to go.

Peter, May, and Gerhalt all seem to be doing about the same as normal, which is fine by me. Hopefully May gets some DEF though, but I doubt it

Battle 19 - I normally skip this next battle but for the sake of playing everything as intended, I'm going to do it.
Peter and Kiwi's eyes look a little off, and Kiwi doesn't have float anymore? Also, found a Wolf Pendant, interesting.

Battle 20 - This battle is always such a pain but it was about the same as it usually is. May missed 3 separate harpies, which was annoying, but it was fine otherwise.

Elric comes in for Kiwi who feels like he was nerfed. Maybe he gets better later, but I'm not that patient!

Battle 21 - I've had Harpies cast Dispel on me 3 times now. Looks like my years of training have paid off, keeping them just out of attack range! Business as usual here.

Ugly stat box

Code: Select all

Bowie	43	14	51	24	23
Sarah	31	33	44	23	24
Chester	46	11	44	25	26
Jaha	30		50	35	21
Kazin	28	44	41	22	28
Slade	29		53	25	26
Kiwi	13		40	44	21
Peter	36		48	28	23
May	37		49	19	24
Gerhalt	30		50	29	28
Luke	45		49	25	29
Rick	36	12	45	26	28

Stopping before Creed's for now

[greyskies]

I like your detailed reports. It's really cool to read whatever caught your interest in each battle.

Spoiler

I had the Power Ring on Kiwi before promotion. It looks like he's not supposed to be able to equip it, but since he already was, he's still getting the bonus. He'll keep it until he becomes disposable.

Yeah, I also always let Kiwi have it, and I'm aware that he'll carry it through the promotion, but I don't really know how to fix it. I believe other characters such as Slade indeed unequip weapons they can no longer use, but oh well. I like to imagine that the priest does his holy mumbo jumbo and Kiwi suddenly grows 10x in size, and now he can barely get his ring off (and once he does, he refuses to ever try wearing it again).

Chester is not hitting hard and it's kind of a bummer. I was hoping Rick had something going for him more than Chester, but his 1 ATT and DEF hardly make up for Chester's 10 HP. They'll both be around for a few levels though so we'll see how things shake out. I also just realized that PGNT gets docked a MOV. Double bummer.

I believe that Chester's ATT is pretty much at vanilla level, it's just the enemies who are tougher. Anyway, I think the centaurs have got a lot of other stuff going for them, such as having good MOV and being a bit tankier than the rest of the force... and the option for either flying or healing isn't bad either.
But c'mon, the MOV nerf of the PGNTs was well deserved. I mean, largest movement radius and a range of 2 with spears? Not on my watch :P

I had considered rolling the dice on Kazin being a WIZ but having Dao for the Harpy Pool is so nice. If I knew his spell progression, I might be more inclined to go the WIZ route but I know he's a good SORC anyway.

SORCs are radically different in Return to Grans, you'll have to use them to punch people, as their magic is going to run dry much faster than in vanilla. I've had some people tell me they love the new thing to death, while others were really disappointed. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you keep Kazin in your party for longer.

Kiwi will still probably be first to go. [...] Peter, May, and Gerhalt all seem to be doing about the same as normal, which is fine by me.

If you didn't notice Peter being less tanky, you're probably really good at working with enemies' attack ranges... which doesn't surprise me, seeing you're not breaking a sweat on SUPER. As such it seems logical you have ditched Kiwi - no point in having a pure tank when you're not being attacked as much anyway. His stun saved my ass in the Chess battle, though... I'm quite hyped to hear how this one'll go for you.

Hopefully May gets some DEF though, but I doubt it ;)

Your doubts are substantiated :D

[MXC]

Spoiler

I had thought about getting rid of someone else to keep the stun ability from Kiwi but he's just been in the way lol.

Battle 22 - This battle is all about patience. It typically becomes a cluster at the end, but mitigating those issues are key. The first group comes down in a set of 3. Let them come in and get the first hit so you don't overextend and you'll be fine. Repeat with the second wave. The third wave is a bit harder because 4 come down, but otherwise it's the same deal. The remaining 6 enemies don't play that game though, so get everyone healed and finish this off. I was fortunate and was able to lure 1 Bishop alone, then the 2 pawns.
I was also able to bait a Queen into hitting just Jaha while the King and remaining Bishop were far off. Then I managed to lure the Bishop alone??? Did you change how the AI performs in this battle? The King wasn't being an aggressive asshole. I even ended the battle on a Bowie counter lol.

Battle 23 - I'm worried about this battle because absolutely nothing is armed, which means the Super bonus is going to hurt. A lot. A quick glance tells me that Willard has 82 attack, the Rats have 72, Ooze 62. Super.
The battle wasn't as tough as I had worried about. Just the two rats and Willard at the end posed an issue, but they weren't so bad since Kazin thankfully learned Neptune this battle

Aw, you renamed Evil Spilit!

Aw, the Running Ring isn't as good

I picked Tyrin, per my usual. I really don't need any of the others, though Karna may have been a bit useful.
I just need to decide who to kick. My initial thoughts are Chester, May, or Luke, but I need to look at stats.
Looks like I'll be ditching Chester this time, though I plan on adding Rohde in for May (Janet is already in the caravan lol). Luke is fragile but the Protect Ring will go well on him. His attack is good enough to keep him around a bit. Chester's Power Ring can now go to Rick

Battle 24 - Dark Bishop Blast 3 really through me off. I usually check all the spells on new enemies but completely forgot. Almost lost Bowie there. Slade finally learned a spell! Aaand it's Muddle. Rick finally learned a spell! Aaand it's Detox. COME ON! I'm having fun putting people to sleep with Kazin's attack though. Is this a class thing or a Guardian Staff thing? Battle was pretty normal and, as promised, Rohde is in for May.

Battle 25 - Cave battles are stupid. Kraken Arms! Nice!

I'll stop here for now

[greyskies]

I was also able to bait a Queen into hitting just Jaha while the King and remaining Bishop were far off. Then I managed to lure the Bishop alone??? Did you change how the AI performs in this battle? The King wasn't being an aggressive asshole.

No, I believe the AI should be the same as always, although the king might appear less aggressive due to his lower range (I think 4 instead of 5?). Maybe you just got lucky? I'll have to check in the Caravan, I might have changed this and forgotten about it.

Aw, the Running Ring isn't as good :(

My quest against the MOV stat continues :D

Looks like I'll be ditching Chester this time, though I plan on adding Rohde in for May (Janet is already in the caravan lol).

I don't think Rohde will do a lot for you... he's the better option if you have trouble keeping your archers alive or need somebody wo can soak up hits, both which certainly doesn't seem to apply to you.

I'm having fun putting people to sleep with Kazin's attack though.

It's a class thing - most spellcasters can do that now, including enemies as well as the WZRD class.

Cave battles are stupid. Kraken Arms! Nice!

Credit goes to Sir Hedge, I stole this idea from his hack :)

[MXC]

I can usually get the Chess battle done the same way, but end up having the last 5ish enemies come in at the same time, so maybe I just used a slightly different tactic or that range really did play a big role.

The issue with May is that, while I haven't let her get hit often, that will change in some of the upcoming battles for various reasons. Essentially, I'm getting ahead of the curve with her. Not to mention, I actually like gunners My only gripe is that SF2 shoves most of them in relatively closely (Elric joins before B21, Janet before B24, and Rohde before B25. It's kind of dumb and I think swapping Janet with Skreech would have worked well. Of course, they both suck so whatever I anticipate having this group through Moun since vanilla SF2 has such poor selection in North Parmecia (4 bad, 1 decent, 1 good character). I'll still check the stats of course

[greyskies]

I agree, it's a lot of archer types stacked onto each other at this point in the game.

I anticipate having this group through Moun since vanilla SF2 has such poor selection in North Parmecia (4 bad, 1 decent, 1 good character). I'll still check the stats of course :)

Don't depend on stats alone, unless you also consider crit probability. Both the BDBTs and the SNPRs have a high crit rating and can be quite deadly.
I'd like to say that all classes have been rebalanced and therefore you shouldn't write off the rest of the North Parmecians, but since Chester & Rick didn't win you over Higins and Jaro probably won't either.

Out of curiosity, who do you consider to be the two decent/good characters in vanilla SF2?

[MXC]

Rick is fine, but Chester certainly wasn't doing enough for me. I'm feeding him apples (lol) to see how he'll compare at level 10 though. Only Frayja and Gyan are worth using in vanilla. And Frayja is a huge stretch. He doesn't gain spells fast enough at all for me. I really shouldn't have included him. And Gyan is outclassed by the other warrior characters, but not always.

[greyskies]

And Frayja is a huge stretch. He doesn't gain spells fast enough at all for me.

Agreed, his spell progression is really weird. Personally, I feel that his healing capabilities would be sufficient to have him in the party, and the attack spell is certainly an argument for that, but I still never use him.

I have sometimes used Taya, though. Her stats may be inferior to other SORCs, but less def or HP only matter so much when all you need is to DAO stuff into oblivion.

[MXC]

My beef with her is her crappy spell progression too. But hey, if you happened to miss the Secret Book, she's great to have.

Spoiler

Battle 26 - Normal, but Kazin learned Lumina, so that's cool!

Just checked Chester's stats again. Yep, still sucks! Higins can go into the Caravan too. Having Heal is cool but he just doesn't stack up, stat-wise. Also, good spot for a Chrome Lance instead of the Pegasus Wing.

Battle 27 - Normal.

But hey, when the hell is Sarah going to get Heal 3? She probably would have as a Cleric, and I'm beginning to wonder if that would have been a better idea. I'm still not struggling but it has made an impact on my kill strategies a few times! Also glad that Kazin has a low-MP spell to kill with instead of waiting to melee attack or get in close range.

Battle 28 - I usually take my flying units around the map and pick off the enemy flying units. But this time, there are too damn many enemies, and not enough of mine, not to mention, all mine are pretty fragile. Also, spawning worms? From what, the wood?! These aren't termites! The ONLY reason I survived that battle is because I muddled and put a bunch of stuff to sleep. Glad those spells have some use finally! By far the hardest battle so far.

Battle 29 - Normal. Tyrin finally learns Freeze 3. Good grief!

And I'll stop there for now so I can recover!

[greyskies]

But hey, when the hell is Sarah going to get Heal 3? She probably would have as a Cleric, and I'm beginning to wonder if that would have been a better idea. I'm still not struggling but it has made an impact on my kill strategies a few times!

Actually, she should have already, unless she is still below level 4 which seems unlikely given where you currently are in the game. I think this might be a bug. Do you remember at which level you promoted her?

EDIT: A patched version of the .ips has been uploaded (link on the frontpage remains the same) which should fix the problem (not for you, MXC, unfortunately - I'd like to encourage you to use SF2edit to edit Sarah's spells so she'll learn Heal 3 whenever she gets her next level up). In one of the last updates of the hack I have apparently added Heal 4 to the spell list of MMNKs on a whim, not realizing that it will mess up the spell progression.

Also, spawning worms? From what, the wood?! These aren't termites!

They crawled up from below the bridge, Cameela summoned them, they rolled a natural 20 on a stealth check, take your pick ;P

The ONLY reason I survived that battle is because I muddled and put a bunch of stuff to sleep. Glad those spells have some use finally! By far the hardest battle so far.

Bwa ha ha, finally! I spent a lot of time testing what would be the perfect point to spawn worms for a pincer movement. Given that they all have unarmed attacks, it's not surprising that this was a difficult trap on Super. I hope you at least had some casualties! :D

[MXC]

Actually, no deaths on Pangoat. When I say "survive" I mean that I almost lost someone

I was going to point out the MMNK spell progression to you since I dug into it, but I took so long posting this update that you already got to it

Spoiler

Battle 30 - Pretty normal battle, but these Orc Lords take forever to kill. Nobody died, though Luke should have on 2 occasions. Do you bump up his dodge rate?

Taya joins and I'm pretty sure I'm going to put her in my party, without even looking at her stats. Kazin has been a lifesaver when it comes to taking out pesky high-DEF units. Skreech may be different though. Luke has been nice for most of the game but he's the closest to being let go.

Luke is definitely out for Skreech, for every single stat (except 2hp), while still being 1 level behind lol

Taya takes over for Elric. I usually keep two archers but Elric and Rohde are almost identical right now and neither one is hitting particularly hard (and May's stats still suck). I might toss Elric back in there later though.

Not much of an update but I'm swamped again. Still, I have a new looking party for the first time in long time!

[greyskies]

Battle 30 - Pretty normal battle, but these Orc Lords take forever to kill. Nobody died, though Luke should have on 2 occasions. Do you bump up his dodge rate?

Nope, I wouldn't know how one could do that. Seems you got lucky :)

Actually, no deaths on Pangoat. When I say "survive" I mean that I almost lost someone :lol:

I'll have to put my faith in the Greater Devils, although since you've apparently already disposed of Zalbard without much trouble... I had expected that he'll be more of a challenge, given his Bolt magic and the fact that he does unarmed attacks.

Taya joins and I'm pretty sure I'm going to put her in my party, without even looking at her stats. Kazin has been a lifesaver when it comes to taking out pesky high-DEF units.

Do you feel that the SORCs are too powerful? And do you use Aether Essences / Fairy Tears, btw?

[MXC]

I don’t typically have issues with Zalbard. He cast Bolt one just Jaha and Gerhalt, so they ran away to get healed. He did try to kill Luke, but he dodged. Other than that, he just got picked apart.

Sorcerers seem fine since their spells are so expensive. I’ve used a few restoring items but I mostly just conserve MP

[greyskies]

When I played this hack on a regular difficulty I found Zalbard challenging (when trying to keep everyone alive) because of his double turns alone, and I assume that on SUPER everyone but the tanks might be in danger of getting one-shotted... Cameela shouldn't pose much of a problem for you, then. I guess the next candidate for trouble might be Geshp, but let's see how you'll fare until that point.

Sorcerers seem fine since their spells are so expensive. I’ve used a few restoring items but I mostly just conserve MP

Good to know. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the classes once you've finished the playthrough.

[Diego_Didakus]

Your hack is not easy, its MXC that is a super pro. lol

[Jonesy_Pants]

has anyone tried this with gensplusdroid on mobile phones? all of my sf2 time is on my phone whilst travelling or waiting for things. I only jump on a PC when doing the team effort so i can save etc.

[greyskies]

Your hack is not easy, its MXC that is a super pro. lol

Yeah, but still, I mean playing on SUPER and he hasn't lost anybody yet? Black magic's gotta be involved there, I'm telling you :D

has anyone tried this with gensplusdroid on mobile phones? all of my sf2 time is on my phone whilst travelling or waiting for things. I only jump on a PC when doing the team effort so i can save etc.

I can confirm that this hack works on mobile emulators, I've been playing it on MD.emu as well as RetroArch and whatever the mobile version of GENS was called. No experience with GENPlusDroid, though.