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Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Cupwalkerz » Thu Nov 08 2012 6:23am

The A,B and C thingy doesn't always define what class it's in, so i always simply check what stats change when i upgrade my weapons.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 19 2012 2:10am

I am going to put this here because the answer belongs here, even though we mostly discussed this issue in the other thread.


Simpelicity wrote:
sulfuroxp wrote:each class (and each weapon [A, B or C]) has its bar


Again, do you have a source for this, or is it a working theory? And if I may, let's keep the discussion to one thread (if discussion there be). I suggest this thread.



I tested this out and made a video to show my results here. If you're too lazy to check out what I think is a 3 minutes video (or was it 2?), the conclusion is that it is most definitely agility that determines your attack timing bar.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Raijinili » Sun Nov 25 2012 11:45am

Building off your discovery, I've found that it's RELATIVE agility: your Agi divided by their Agi. I have it in more detail here, but I came to post about other things.

Simpelicity wrote:3rd EDIT because I was reading another thread and it made me think of something I was thinking was happening. Turn order is mostly determined by AGI, everyone agrees? But there's some random to it. I think they take into account FC as well. On the theory level it makes sense if you see it as stamina. You don't have it, you slow.

Turn order is decided by delay and speed. When you move or act, you increase your delay. During your turn, you can see a red flashing bar in the turn order, on the top screen, showing you what would happen to your turn if you performed that action or movement (the more you move, the more you delay).

I don't think there's random. The stamina theory can be tested with Force Belt or Damascus Guard (full armor that subtracts 8 agi), and two units with the same agi (can tune with equipment). Then make the other unit have the extra force.

Simpelicity wrote:One thing I'm figuring these days : a lot of the extra EXP conditions involve doing union battles and connect battles.

In order:
- 5% per enemy killed
- 20% per boss killed
- union: 5% per unique partner
- connect: 1% times biggest combo
- turn bonus: 20%? (same for all active characters)
- Most Valuable Player: not just the one who does most damage? 20% (can tie; I just got four MVPs, while the fifth was left out of a connect)

The kill bonuses depend on who initiated the action that killed the enemy, so the leader of the connect, for example.

The union bonus counts the number of people you unioned with, rather than the number of unions you joined. So making Jin and Rush union repeatedly in a single battle may amuse you, but it won't get you more than 5% bonus exp.

Pretty sure: Connect counts the biggest (most hits) Connect combo you were a member of, even if you didn't end up attacking in it. So if Jin, Bale, and Miriam started a Connect attack, but Bale dropped the combo, Miriam will get credit for the combo, though she would not lose her turn (unlike Bale). I got a 26% on this, so finisher counts as a hit and max is probably 41% (spam 15FRC skills and finisher).

The Turn bonus may be a 20% yes-no bonus: if you finish within a designated (not visible?) round limit, you get 20%.

MVP: most force used? Not just damage, or I wouldn't get Julius to tie with Tieda that one time.

Inactive characters (those not in the battle) get 70%, no bonuses.

PS: Tip: Learn katakana. The "boss", "connect", "union", and "turn" words there were borrow words in the phonetic katakana script (bosu, yunion, konekuto, taan), and you don't need to learn the whole language to pick up useful things like "Force" (foosu).

===

While looking into Connect exp bonuses, I figured out how the sixth person works. The sixth person:
- must be one of five (so connect fours won't get a sixth)
- is not the fifth person
- has used 100 Force during this chain
- is (probably) randomly chosen from those who qualify
You can see this by going into Force training (second option in battle room) and not depleting 100 Force for the first character. As soon as a character DOES use 100 Force (and you move on to the next), the sixth slot will appear. The sixth character will have up to 150 Force. Sometimes the sixth character has something like 133 Force (or some other number not a multiple of 5), and I don't know what causes that.

Also, to do a Finisher, you must get at least a 15-hit combo.

Edit3: Credit: Added link for where I probably found out about the "sixth person".
Last edited by Raijinili on Mon Nov 26 2012 10:45pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 26 2012 12:31am

I said it was relative in the video, because that was an obvious one. Didn't calculate the formula though, I'm not that interested into maths. How'd you come up with your formulas though?

Also, you misunderstand me when I'm talking about randomness. It's random if you consider AGI the only factor, meaning there must be another factor. And if you assume the same rules apply to ennemies and friends, then you don't need to do complicated synching of stats and such. I was giving an example with vague indicators. To talk with no spoiler evasion, I was talking about that battle where you fight the cannons that were modeled after the ancient weapon of the first Shining Force game. They are immobile. They all had their turns in a row. And then one of them took a shot at me. The 3 that hadn't shot were still having their turns at the same place. The cannon that shot was having his turn near last all of a sudden. Litterally the only difference between it and the other cannons was that it spent its FC. So it's not directly tied to movement, or at the very least not tied to movement only. It would require more testing. Writing from memory here, but that bar you're talking about? If you're talking about the giant yellow-turns-red bar at the top, that's just their movement bar. Shows how much movement they have left, in case you want to go somewhere else afterwards.

Lastly, this ties into asking for your methods, but how do you get to 15 hits for a finisher? What I'm wondering about is if you took into account what level of attack you were using, to test if it takes more or less hits depending on the power of the attacks used. It may or may not take it into account. And maybe it's tied to that counter that fills up and gives your attacks bonus damage when it fills up. The thing on the bottom screen. If it does take it into account, make sure you test with all physical attacks. Different elements have different charge up bars, I think.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby sulfuroxp » Mon Nov 26 2012 1:25am

:thumbsup: +1 for Stamina, not level or random, like in many games

I will check about the "15 hits"

EDIT = It's Correct :thumbsup:
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Raijinili » Mon Nov 26 2012 2:58am

Simpelicity wrote:I said it was relative in the video, because that was an obvious one.

Sorry, it's been a few days since I've looked at the video. Forgot.

Simpelicity wrote:Didn't calculate the formula though, I'm not that interested into maths. How'd you come up with your formulas though?

Played around with Agi equipment and different Force training enemies.

Simpelicity wrote:The cannon that shot was having his turn near last all of a sudden. Litterally the only difference between it and the other cannons was that it spent its FC. So it's not directly tied to movement, or at the very least not tied to movement only.

Yeah, I said when you move OR act.

Here: http://imgur.com/Rsvzw
There are four frames there:
1. Shows a vertical red bar on the bottom of the screen in the turn order.
2. The red bar disappears because she spent a little more movement (hold B to move more precisely), and thus her turn is delayed after the enemy(s) after Rush.
3. Preparing to heal from same position as 1.
4. Pressed A to choose target. Now the game predicts her turn will be after the next person.

Using the turn indicator is a bit unwieldy, since you have to scroll to see where your turn ends up (every move you make resets the scroll), and you can't scroll at all when targeting.

It may be better in four images. If you want it, I'll upload it.

If you really want, I'll look for the address of the delay. But that'd have to be in two weeks.

Simpelicity wrote:Lastly, this ties into asking for your methods, but how do you get to 15 hits for a finisher? What I'm wondering about is if you took into account what level of attack you were using, to test if it takes more or less hits depending on the power of the attacks used. It may or may not take it into account. And maybe it's tied to that counter that fills up and gives your attacks bonus damage when it fills up. The thing on the bottom screen. If it does take it into account, make sure you test with all physical attacks. Different elements have different charge up bars, I think.

I played around with Force training a lot. I tried different things, including all of what you listed. The only way for you to be sure is to test it yourself (go to Force training).
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 26 2012 4:07am

By red bar you mean the little red thing that appears next to Rush's portrait in a couple of the images? So it's predicting that she's going to move after Rush? The problem with that is that Rush has yet to move, but most likely she'll play before him still (though you are correct in what the calculation takes into account). And it's not a physical representation of stamina then. I can believe it's both though, even without your demonstration. They already use both movement and action for FC regeneration, as in you need to do neither to have a fully relaxed FC regen. That they'd go from there and use it for something else isn't surprising, especially when it makes so much sense.

And no, I won't test it. I barely have enough time for university and my videos as is, I'll not take the time. I believe you, I just wanted to make sure you thought of everything, at least everything I can think of as well. Sometimes people (me included) are prone to forgetting small details. It's good to show how you got to the result as well as the result, allows people to look in and see if you missed anything. Scientific method.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Raijinili » Mon Nov 26 2012 4:21am

Simpelicity wrote:By red bar you mean the little red thing that appears next to Rush's portrait in a couple of the images? So it's predicting that she's going to move after Rush? The problem with that is that Rush has yet to move, so most likely she'll play before him still (though you are correct in what the calculation takes into account).

She WILL (next) move after Rush. You know about the round system in place, right? Rush's portrait is not greyed out, which means he hasn't taken a turn yet this round, so after Miriam takes a turn this round, she will be placed there. The red bar tells you where you will be placed relative to the other units who have acted already during this round. Being right after Rush means, next round she'd be going before every other unit who has moved this round so far.

Simpelicity wrote:And it's not a physical representation of stamina then.

I said that it tells you what happens to your TURN, not your delay.

Wasn't stamina your term for Force-based turn order change, by the way?

Simpelicity wrote:They already use both movement and action for FC regeneration, as in you need to do neither to have a fully relaxed FC regen. That they'd go from there and use it for something else isn't surprising, especially when it makes so much sense.

It's not uncommon to do so in speed-based SRPGs.

Simpelicity wrote:I believe you, I just wanted to make sure you thought of everything, at least everything I can think of as well. Sometimes people (me included) are prone to forgetting small details. It's good to show how you got to the result as well as the result, allows people to look in and see if you missed anything. Scientific method.

It would take too much time to write up my data in a readable format. You can assume that I will make an attempt to note if there are any doubts or room for error.

Edit: I've edited my earlier post. The sixth person doesn't necessarily have 150 Force.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 26 2012 6:36am

That last post wasn't trying to start an argument, considering I agree with pretty much everything said, but apparently I'm being argued anyways.

Raijinili wrote:She WILL (next) move after Rush. You know about the round system in place, right? Rush's portrait is not greyed out, which means he hasn't taken a turn yet this round, so after Miriam takes a turn this round, she will be placed there. The red bar tells you where you will be placed relative to the other units who have acted already during this round. Being right after Rush means, next round she'd be going before every other unit who has moved this round so far.


Up until one of the units that haven't played yet miraculously get placed before her. When I say it's problematic, I mean as in you can't use it reliably unless A) you're near the end of the turn or B) you know how it's calculated and you can predict approximately who's going to do how much stuff. I had to change a word though because I wasn't expressing that very well.

Raijinili wrote:Wasn't stamina your term for Force-based turn order change, by the way?


It was. I dunno what you're trying to say with that though. Feel free to propose a new term if you prefer.

Raijinili wrote:It's not uncommon to do so in speed-based SRPGs.


Sure it is. I don't really mind though. I was more talking about in-game logic though. The game is already calculating that, so why not re-use it? Especially since it makes so much sense lore-ish wise. You do stuff? You tired and slower. And then it's not too out of the way to code since you're reusing it elsewhere (re-using the calculation of how much you did. For FC regen).

Raijinili wrote:It would take too much time to write up my data in a readable format. You can assume that I will make an attempt to note if there are any doubts or room for error.


You seem to be taking this personnal. Or I seem to be misreading this. Either way, please don't take it personnal. Skepticism is good to have on the Internet. I don't know that you know what you're doing. I just trust you some.
I will say though, this is less about giving your data (feel free though), and more about data collection method. The point of the exercise is that people can follow the same experiment and arrive pretty much always at the same results (they can do their own data collection if they want). For instance in my video, I did that. Give Goldilocks only attack in one game, only agility in the other, then observe the difference in the attack bar. That's the method, I wasn't giving any data out. For example, you didn't know his AGI ratings for either game. Didn't need it. Gave the results and the way to get them. Data is less important, though always interesting of course. They tend to be a little important when math is involved though.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Raijinili » Mon Nov 26 2012 11:54am

Simpelicity wrote:That last post wasn't trying to start an argument, considering I agree with pretty much everything said, but apparently I'm being argued anyways.

1. Correction and clarification.
2. Clarification.
3. Exposition.
4. Clarification.

What argument?

Simpelicity wrote:It was. I dunno what you're trying to say with that though.

I'm saying I'm unclear what you mean by this:
"And it's not a physical representation of stamina then."

Simpelicity wrote:Sure it is.

FFT and close derivatives use that kind of mechanic. Pretty sure the original Shining Forces used random + speed + round barrier + action/move delay, but I could be wrong.

Simpelicity wrote:You seem to be taking this personnal. Or I seem to be misreading this.

Really? I'm trying to inform the board of some assumptions that can be made, for future reference. I won't usually show my methods unless I have doubt and want others to check.

I was serious about testing it yourself. I thought about writing up my method to test it, and decided that this would be more work than to just do it over, because I didn't remember anything more than "mash different ways while counting".
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby StorMyu » Mon Nov 26 2012 7:25pm

Chill people ^^
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 26 2012 10:08pm

Chilling.

I was recording some more SFF today though, and I noticed something. This one time (you can see it friday actually) I decided to end the battle in a fun way : I had my 5 characters up to 100 FC. Decided to unload a connect battle on the last dude standing. Long story of awesome short, I was using the 25 FC phys attack the whole time - so according to the formula presented above, that'd make 5*4 20 hits total. However, I lost count at some point and did the finisher too early, my last character still had, I believe 2 attacks left in her. Maybe one. But it doesn't matter regardless. The bonus EXP all my characters got from it wasn't 18-19 like it should've been if it's only about number of hits, it was 25%. That's a whole lot. And that means it isn't just the highest number of hits during a connect battle the character participated in.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Raijinili » Mon Nov 26 2012 10:28pm

If you had 100FC each, five units, and each unit was using a Force cost that divided 100, then you definitely qualify for the sixth attacker (according to my understanding of that mechanic). That means you had a total of 100*5 + 150 = 650 (or a little less?), and that's up to 26 hits of 25 Force. If you didn't take the last two hits, it would be 24. Since you did a finisher, it would be 25 hits.
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Re: Instructions: How to play the Japanese version

Postby Simpelicity » Mon Nov 26 2012 10:56pm

Raijinili wrote:If you had 100FC each, five units, and each unit was using a Force cost that divided 100, then you definitely qualify for the sixth attacker (according to my understanding of that mechanic). That means you had a total of 100*5 + 150 = 650 (or a little less?), and that's up to 26 hits of 25 Force. If you didn't take the last two hits, it would be 24. Since you did a finisher, it would be 25 hits.


Oh is that what the sixth character thing you were talking about is? No wonder I was confused. I didn't lose track, I just didn't know I'd get an additionnal character. It changing to that last one surprised me.
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