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David's Class Options

Updated 6/11*

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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Wed May 01 2019 8:19pm

From the current rendition of the OP:
legalize freedom wrote:Commander doesn't exactly have the same feel as the other two classes, but it is his given second class and works well when considering his role in the story

I still think that "Overseer" would solve the weakness of "not exactly having the same feel as the other two classes" while also still working well when considering his role in the story. But I also think that Commander's not bad, and I would still be content with it.

legalize freedom wrote:Warden works better with the Commando line (Guardian to Striker would be odd). Guardian works better with the Sentinel line.

I think Warden works just fine with the Sentinel line, but so does Guardian, so again, I'm still content with that.

legalize freedom wrote:Are there any we can eliminate as being weaker? Currently 7 options and that is probably too many for a poll.

It's actually not too many. I just checked, and you can have up to 15 poll options.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Hattari » Thu May 02 2019 11:45am

"...most of those options are too long. Elven Ranger is already stretching it."

Whoops; I forgot to consider length. At least it adds a little less to your plate then (felt bad about that).

legalize freedom wrote:Weaknesses of General line:
-Original classes focus on combat abilities vs leadership
-There is nothing explicit in game that dictates he is officially promoted within the Imperial army beyond being an leading member of the Medion army, but it is reasonable that he would be

I don't really see that as being much of a weakness. It's all a matter of perspective; one could easily view the in-game promotion as evidence enough of his rank increase. It'd be no different than any other character in that sense, and the player would have no reason to question it given David's many narrative contributions (key to recruiting two other characters in Hera & Hedva, led the tank division, offered vital information regarding the god child, etc).

I'm going to be honest - I just can't get behind warden, guardian, or sentinel. They're cool sounding classes, but I don't think they fit this character well enough, as they don't highlight his most distinct, or noticeable traits. I think for all three, the cons to using them outweigh the pros... that's just one opinion.

After more consideration, I'd like to suggest this for a potential poll option:

Elven Ranger (or Elf Ranger for brevity)
Commando
Champion


These could serve as 2nd and 3rd class alternatives to Commander and General. As the latter emphasizes David's leadership role, the former would highlight his combat abilities and versatility.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu May 02 2019 11:53am

Hattari wrote:I'm going to be honest - I just can't get behind warden, guardian, or sentinel. They're cool sounding classes, but I don't think they fit this character well enough, as they don't highlight his most distinct, or noticeable traits. I think for all three, the cons to using them outweigh the pros... that's just one opinion.

After more consideration, I'd like to suggest this for a potential poll option:

Elven Ranger (or Elf Ranger for brevity)
Commando
Champion


These could serve as 2nd and 3rd class alternatives to Commander and General. As the latter emphasizes David's leadership role, the former would highlight his combat abilities and versatility.


I would be curious what you would say his most distinct traits are and what the cons are to these three options.

Champion is already in use by Penn.


While I have everyone's attention, I would also propose changing the hero final class from Light Apostle to simply Apostle. Many of the other characters final promotions require the distinction of Light being added (Light Princess, Light Fairy) since their previous class is just the final class without the Light (Princess, Fairy), but I believe Apostle stands on its own as it implies light.

I don't believe there are any Dark Apostles in the game of any sort and as a practical matter a shorter class would keep the load screen (where you select the record you want to load) from overlapping as much.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Hattari » Thu May 02 2019 12:04pm

I keep forgetting about Penn because I haven't played the recent updates. My mistake! Elf Champion then? (I've been trying to think of synonyms for champion that aren't too over-the-top, with little success)

"I would be curious what you would say his most distinct traits are and what the cons are to these three options."

His range; access to all throwing weapons, and all primary weapon advantages as a result; his mobility; him being an elven fighter who favors close quarters weapons over arrows; his bluntness; his outspoken sense of justice; his above average magic resistance; his love of muscles and flexing them.

Cons to my suggestion? As mentioned by OP, they are reminiscent of other character classes (Waltz in the case of E. Ranger, Penn in the case of Champion, the human generals in the case of Comm-Gen). I can't see any other cons.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu May 02 2019 12:52pm

Hattari wrote:"I would be curious what you would say his most distinct traits are and what the cons are to these three options."

Cons to my suggestion? As mentioned by OP, they are reminiscent of other character classes (Waltz in the case of E. Ranger, Penn in the case of Champion, the human generals in the case of Comm-Gen). I can't see any other cons.


I meant cons of Warden, Guardian and Sentinel that haven't been listed as of yet.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Thu May 02 2019 5:54pm

Maybe it's just that I'm not a Christian, but Apostle by itself sounds pretty lame and weaksauce.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu May 02 2019 6:26pm

Rune wrote:Maybe it's just that I'm not a Christian, but Apostle by itself sounds pretty lame and weaksauce.


I didn't realize Apostle was primarily a Christian thing in RL, but regardless adding Light seems redundant.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Thu May 02 2019 8:56pm

I think you usually need to go many definitions down for apostle to get away from explicit mention of christianity or jesus. For example, on dictionary.com you have to click "see more" and go to definition number 8.

To instead call the three heroes Apostles would leave me feeling a bit grossed out, to be honest.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu May 02 2019 11:47pm

Rune wrote:To instead call the three heroes Apostles would leave me feeling a bit grossed out, to be honest.


Well don't torture yourself. There are many higher level religious terms used in the game. I don't suppose that helped...

The choice here is simple. Light Apostle (as it is now) or simply Apostle (my proposal). Is there something about the Light that makes it different?
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Fri May 03 2019 3:47am

legalize freedom wrote:While I have everyone's attention, I would also propose changing the hero final class from Light Apostle to simply Apostle. Many of the other characters final promotions require the distinction of Light being added (Light Princess, Light Fairy) since their previous class is just the final class without the Light (Princess, Fairy), but I believe Apostle stands on its own as it implies light.

I don't believe there are any Dark Apostles in the game of any sort and as a practical matter a shorter class would keep the load screen (where you select the record you want to load) from overlapping as much.

I completely agree with this idea and the reasoning. Frankly, I think that overlapping in the menu is reason enough to go ahead with it just by itself, but that aside, you're right: "Light" Apostle is completely redundant.

Rune wrote:I think you usually need to go many definitions down for apostle to get away from explicit mention of christianity or jesus. For example, on dictionary.com you have to click "see more" and go to definition number 8.

Anyone who can't tell that the word "apostle" in the context of this game has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus (except allegorically) and everything to do with Gracia, with or without any qualifier like "Light", must certainly have some kind of problems. Context is a thing, context is important, and context is everything.

legalize freedom wrote:The choice here is simple. Light Apostle (as it is now) or simply Apostle (my proposal). Is there something about the Light that makes it different?

Nope.

legalize freedom wrote:Well don't torture yourself. There are many higher level religious terms used in the game. I don't suppose that helped...

Indeed. Frankly, there are a lot of Christian themes in this game, and I don't think we should let anyone's personal prejudice against Christianity guide any decision-making. Not even considering the fact that it would be morally wrong to let our decisions be guided by hatred and prejudice, there is the more important fact that this would compromise the integrity of the game, as these Christian themes cannot be uncoupled from the original vision and core identity of what this game is, whether one likes those Christian themes or not.

Hattari wrote:I'm going to be honest - I just can't get behind warden, guardian, or sentinel. They're cool sounding classes, but I don't think they fit this character well enough, as they don't highlight his most distinct, or noticeable traits.

Hattari wrote:His range; access to all throwing weapons, and all primary weapon advantages as a result; his mobility; him being an elven fighter who favors close quarters weapons over arrows; his bluntness; his outspoken sense of justice; his above average magic resistance; his love of muscles and flexing them.

These things of which you speak are certainly among his most distinct traits, but that doesn't somehow mean that the primary traits exemplified by Warden/Guardian/Sentinel are not also among his most distinct traits. We have two pools of highly distinct traits for this character. One pool describes his primary lore traits, and the other pool describes his primary combat traits. It would seem that there are no class options that can encapsulate all of the traits from both pools (not surprising, since there's an awful lot of traits in there), and only one of those trait pools have had any real proposals. It's just like you say: "I've been trying to think of synonyms for champion that aren't too over-the-top, with little success". It seems that no one else has had any real success either. This brings us back to the debate that knightOfdragon and I were having. The Warden/Guardian/Sentinel suggestions do not particularly describe his combat abilities, this is true (though they somewhat do, to a limited extent). But there is a precedent that's already set for class names not necessarily needing to describe combat abilities and can instead describe lore qualities instead. This precedent is exemplified very well by Isabella, whose class names describe her lore rather than her combat abilities. Likewise with Synbios, Medion, and Julian's promoted classes. What we're essentially looking at here is that, on the one hand, we have acceptable and functional proposals for David's class names that effectively describe his primary lore qualities in an environment where class names that describe lore qualities are established as being acceptable. On the other hand, nobody has really made any acceptable and functional proposals for David's class names that effectively describe his primary combat qualities without simultaneously compromising cannon or clashing with other classes.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Fri May 03 2019 6:41pm

legalize freedom wrote:
Rune wrote:To instead call the three heroes Apostles would leave me feeling a bit grossed out, to be honest.


Well don't torture yourself. There are many higher level religious terms used in the game. I don't suppose that helped...

The choice here is simple. Light Apostle (as it is now) or simply Apostle (my proposal). Is there something about the Light that makes it different?


You asked if people were on board with the change, I said absolutely not. Take that however you want.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Fri May 03 2019 7:06pm

Rune wrote:
legalize freedom wrote:
Rune wrote:To instead call the three heroes Apostles would leave me feeling a bit grossed out, to be honest.


Well don't torture yourself. There are many higher level religious terms used in the game. I don't suppose that helped...

The choice here is simple. Light Apostle (as it is now) or simply Apostle (my proposal). Is there something about the Light that makes it different?


You asked if people were on board with the change, I said absolutely not. Take that however you want.


I'm not convinced you understand the change.

You are suggesting we leave it as Light Apostle and I'm wondering why you favour that.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby DiegoMM » Fri May 03 2019 8:18pm

just Apostle seens incomplete, I think you have to represent something, so Light Apostle is better.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Fri May 03 2019 9:37pm

That summarizes my main issue, actually.

If you are just an apostle, then you fall under the Christian apostles. But the three heroes are not apostles of Jesus, they are apostles of the light.

Also, I will point out that some Christians also take issue with such things. I believe it was a certain Salibu that stated he found the usage of "God" in shining force games to be disrespectful. Some Christians do not care for imitation, so please do not make this out to be something about my "personal prejudice against Christianity". And for one last point, yes, shining force 3 has many Judeo-Christian themes, but that's because they are standard story telling themes.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Fri May 03 2019 11:30pm

Understood.

Technically they are Apostles of Elbesem and I feel that is implied. There is no Jesus in the shining universe, so it can't really be considered in those terms.

When I spoke of higher level religious terms, I wasn't thinking Christian. I was more thinking about all the greek gods and mythology represented. There is a ton of that. Much more than anything else. I guess since it has been so long since they were popular it has become legend vs religion... and that's fair.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat May 04 2019 12:07am

Rune wrote:If you are just an apostle, then you fall under the Christian apostles.

Uh, no. Not in a world where Christianity doesn't exist. That's insane. Context is a thing. You can't be a Christian apostle in a world where Christianity does not exist. Plain and simple.

Rune wrote:Also, I will point out that some Christians also take issue with such things. I believe it was a certain Salibu that stated he found the usage of "God" in shining force games to be disrespectful.

So? The fact that some people don't like it, Christian or otherwise, does nothing to take away from the fact that this game still has very prominent Christian allegory which cannot be uncoupled from the game without compromising its integrity and core identity. And other religious allegory besides Christianity, as legalize freedom pointed out.

DiegoMM wrote:just Apostle seens incomplete, I think you have to represent something, so Light Apostle is better.

That which they are apostles of is so contextually obvious that it doesn't need to be explicitly put in the class label. It would be like insisting that Obright's starting class can't just be "Warrior", but has to be "Dwarf Warrior". Like, it's so obvious that it doesn't need stating. That said, however, ultimately, I don't really care about it being in the class label in and of itself. Like, "Light Apostle" is fine. But if it overlaps in the save menu, then that's problematic. Still not the end of the world, though, I suppose.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Sat May 04 2019 12:59am

I personally don't see it as Christian at all. It's a religious story when you boil it down. Star Wars is/was a love story, SF3 is a religious story. I think the themes could be applied to any religion. God(s) and followers. They are basically all the same when you boil them down to the basics.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Hattari » Sat May 04 2019 1:34pm

legalize freedom wrote:I meant cons of Warden, Guardian and Sentinel that haven't been listed as of yet.

1. all three imply a high-DF or heavy armor unit (not an absolute or required for lore of course, but problematic in this particular instance, as it concerns a character who possesses unusually low defense in their pre-promoted state. Had he at least average defense bare minimum, I think it'd be less unreasonable. As it is, I think it'd be more than a little misleading to players.)

2. guardian & sentinel sound relatively "elite" or advanced when compared to other tier-I classes in Shining Force III (especially when considering what he'd promote to.)

3. sentinel seems the most inaccurate of the options (David is less immobile sentry, and more fleet-footed combatant as befits a forest elf)

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:These things of which you speak are certainly among his most distinct traits, but that doesn't somehow mean that the primary traits exemplified by Warden/Guardian/Sentinel are not also among his most distinct traits.

Which of his distinct traits (concerning lore) are best exemplified by W/G/S? (Besides his role as a leader and representative, which rejected titles like chief/chieftan also conveyed)

I agree that job titles should take both abilities and narrative role into consideration, and need not prioritize one over the other by default. However, with a cast as unique as this, some things need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Again, I emphasize how unusual David is, in a series no stranger to the unusual. Given how variable - and potentially useful - his weapon selection is, I feel this is a case where it behooves the developers (or here, the translators) to go out of their way to indicate that to the player in some way. Combat ability doesn't have to trump lore, but for him I think it ought to hold greater weight. This is another reason I'm reluctant to assume Camelot made a mistake when making him a ranger. All things considered, it is the ideal title from both a lore and gameplay standpoint. If we can't pinpoint a replacement that covers both sides as well, I think gameplay should take priority - and again, only because David plays so differently than other fighting classes.

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:What we're essentially looking at here is that, on the one hand, we have acceptable and functional proposals for David's class names that effectively describe his primary lore qualities in an environment where class names that describe lore qualities are established as being acceptable. On the other hand, nobody has really made any acceptable and functional proposals for David's class names that effectively describe his primary combat qualities without simultaneously compromising cannon or clashing with other classes.

This is the conundrum we share. While I personally have no issue with elven or elf ranger for his 1st class, I do recognize the aversion you and others have had to it. I've really been racking my brain the past few days to find something the majority here could at least consider.

I still think the first option in the OP is the strongest line being considered. But, rather than guardian, warden or elven ranger, what do you all think about psiloi as a potential first class?

It's Grecian in origin; light-armor, mobile infantry known for using javelins and other throwing weapons. David kinda looks like a Greco-Roman statue, so that's an unintended plus. Best of all, it's not a word that's widely-circulated in fantasy or SRPGs, so few players are likely to read it with potentially-misleading preconceptions.

Partisan is a similar option, but I think psiloi is stronger. Also, as with guardian and sentinel, partisan almost sounds too elite for a first class.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Sat May 04 2019 11:07pm

Those are all great points. I'll add them when I get a chance.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sun May 05 2019 3:14am

Hattari wrote:1. all three imply a high-DF or heavy armor unit (not an absolute or required for lore of course, but problematic in this particular instance, as it concerns a character who possesses unusually low defense in their pre-promoted state. Had he at least average defense bare minimum, I think it'd be less unreasonable. As it is, I think it'd be more than a little misleading to players.)

Warden does absolutely nothing to imply high defense at all. Guardian and Sentinel, I can at least understand. I mean, I don't think that they do automatically imply high defense, but I can understand why someone would infer that. Guardian just means one who defends something, and Sentinel just means one who stands guard. Neither of those things necessarily entail high defense. Hell, even tiny little Penn could be a guardian or a sentinel if he defended something or stood guard. You say that he has "unusually low defense in his pre-promoted state". Well, Warden (which does nothing to suggest high defense) would be his pre-promoted state, so that's all gravy. Beyond his first class, he has above average defense. Not the highest of the high, but certainly above average. He rivals Dantares and Campbell in defense. I'd say that's pretty darn decent.

Hattari wrote:2. guardian & sentinel sound relatively "elite" or advanced when compared to other tier-I classes in Shining Force III (especially when considering what he'd promote to.)

I disagree regarding Guardian, but I definitely agree regarding Sentinel. Therefore, it's a pretty good thing that no one is suggesting Sentinel as a tier 1 class. lol.

Hattari wrote:3. sentinel seems the most inaccurate of the options (David is less immobile sentry, and more fleet-footed combatant as befits a forest elf)

On this note, I agree with you. Which is why I didn't propose it as my first choice when I brought up the option of Sentinel. I actually think Warden>Overseer>Guardian would be more technically accurate. But I also don't think that Sentinel is too far of a stretch. I think that the amount of stretch that it does take is within permissible bounds. Also, it sounds tremendously cool. lol.

Hattari wrote:Which of his distinct traits (concerning lore) are best exemplified by W/G/S? (Besides his role as a leader and representative, which rejected titles like chief/chieftan also conveyed)

Firstly, I could be mistaken, but I get the impression that you put forth "which rejected titles like chief/chieftain also conveyed" as an argument to discredit W/G/S under the basis that if chief/chieftain were rejected, then W/G/S should be rejected for the same reason. Forgive me if that's a misinterpretation, but supposing it's not, then chief/chieftain was only rejected because there's an NPC who explicitly says that Trump Village has no chieftain. But a warden is just someone in charge of looking after a place and doesn't require a formal title, a guardian is just someone who defends something and also doesn't require a formal title, and a sentinel is just someone who stands guard and, again, doesn't require a formal title. While I agree that he doesn't strictly "stand" guard--like, he doesn't have a post--and as such, I can understand the objection to Sentinel, he does defend Gracia and Medion's troops in the capacity of one of Medion's highest ranking soldiers and one of Gracia's right hand men, and he is in charge of looking after Stump Village. And he also "oversees" the tank battle. And overseeing Medion's troops in general would be a responsibility of someone with a position in their army as high as his. Those are pretty prominent traits. And this is also why I think that, despite how cool Sentinel sounds, Warden>Overseer>Guardian would be a better fit.

Hattari wrote:I agree that job titles should take both abilities and narrative role into consideration, and need not prioritize one over the other by default. However, with a cast as unique as this, some things need to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Yeah, that's what we're doing. This whole W/G/S line is us taking a case-by-case approach.

Hattari wrote:I agree that job titles should take both abilities and narrative role into consideration, and need not prioritize one over the other by default. [...] Again, I emphasize how unusual David is, in a series no stranger to the unusual. Given how variable - and potentially useful - his weapon selection is, I feel this is a case where it behooves the developers (or here, the translators) to go out of their way to indicate that to the player in some way.

In other words, we should prioritize one over the other. lol

Hattari wrote:Combat ability doesn't have to trump lore, but for him I think it ought to hold greater weight.

In other words, "combat ability doesn't have to trump lore, but for him, I think combat ability ought to trump lore." And look, if you can come up with a good quality suggestion that can encapsulate his combat ability well, I'm all ears. But in lieu of that, falling back on the lore is the only sensible option.

Hattari wrote:This is another reason I'm reluctant to assume Camelot made a mistake when making him a ranger. All things considered, it is the ideal title from both a lore and gameplay standpoint.

I agree that Ranger is accurate to the lore. Equally as accurate as Warden, even. However, it's not accurate to gameplay, because according to Shining Force gameplay, Ranger = Centaur archer. He is neither a centaur nor an archer. And as legalize freedom has already pointed out, Justin's first class is actually "Ranger" in the game code despite the fact that the player never gets to see that on account of Justin starting out promoted. This is a very powerful hint that, had SC2 been officially translated, David's class would've been changed in the localization. It's probably not a "mistake" that David was given the class of Ranger for the Japanese version, but it seems very likely that an English localization would've changed that, as they'd already given that class to Justin in SC1, and probably would've given it to Waltz in SC2, carrying on the tradition of Rangers being centaur archers.

Hattari wrote:If we can't pinpoint a replacement that covers both sides as well, I think gameplay should take priority - and again, only because David plays so differently than other fighting classes.

In other words, combat ability ought to trump lore, and we should prioritize one over the other. lol. You are very flip-floppy in this post. Anyway, again, if you can suggest something that actually covers his combat potential well, then I'm all ears. As I am inclined to feel that classes that describe combat ability are generally preferable to classes that describe lore. But again... in lieu of any such classes, falling back on the lore is the only sensible option.

Hattari wrote:I still think the first option in the OP is the strongest line being considered. But, rather than guardian, warden or elven ranger, what do you all think about psiloi as a potential first class?

It's Grecian in origin; light-armor, mobile infantry known for using javelins and other throwing weapons. David kinda looks like a Greco-Roman statue, so that's an unintended plus. Best of all, it's not a word that's widely-circulated in fantasy or SRPGs, so few players are likely to read it with potentially-misleading preconceptions.

That is the most esoteric thing I have ever heard. It's not just a word that's not widely circulated in fantasy or SRPGs that few players are likely to read with potentially misleading preconceptions. That's a word that's not even known by pretty much anyone outside of maybe history buffs that few players are likely to have ever heard in their lives. I think "possible preconceptions due to individual bias" is a far sight preferable to "extremely unlikely to know what it even might mean, let alone even be able to read it." Personally, I think this is among the worst suggestions thus far.

Hattari wrote:Partisan is a similar option, but I think psiloi is stronger. Also, as with guardian and sentinel, partisan almost sounds too elite for a first class.

This is a lot better than "Psiloi"... And I don't think it sounds too elite for a first class at all. However, since everybody seems to think that preconceptions are so important, this sounds like a class that exclusively uses polearms. You're not going to find any class name that actually describes someone who uses knives, spears, and throwing axes. It almost certainly doesn't exist. Partisan does sound cool, though. And much like Sentinel, the amount to which it's a stretch is arguably within permissible bounds. I mean, I'm not hung up on preconceptions like the rest of you. This is a fantasy world, and we can stretch semantics a little bit (not too much, but a little bit) to fit into the needs of that fantasy world. As such, I find Partisan to be an acceptable proposal, but the rest of you who are so hung up on preconceptions should reject it for the same reasons that you've rejected Warden, Guardian, Sentinel, and Champion.
Creator of Shining Force III: 16-bit (WIP).
Tjelladallak våriiikeõdõtsyk jeissõ'eilamnikinõhõn. Ii'tuntoimjähädälläjät, niin miietsy iimpa'tyõhõnja.
Creator of Shining Force III: 16-bit (WIP).
Tjelladallak våriiikeõdõtsyk jeissõ'eilamnikinõhõn. Ii'tuntoimjähädälläjät, niin miietsy iimpa'tyõhõnja.
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