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David's Class Options

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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Tue Apr 23 2019 8:21pm

legalize freedom wrote:
Rune wrote:Also, why is Elf Ranger preferable to Elven Ranger?


Primarily length, but it would work. It means the same thing in two less letters.


I prefer "Elven" because in modern English it is primarily used an adjective, whereas "Elf" is primarily a noun. To me, "Elf Ranger" sounds like what you get with a strict character limit.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby MXC » Tue Apr 23 2019 8:44pm

100% Agree with Rune's assessment. It fits spatially so I see no issue with it. Also, not sure if it was mentioned at some point in any of the now 3 topics but since David uses all ranged weapons, it's at least somewhat of a connective tissue concerning other SF games using the term "Ranger". Rangers could almost be seen as a ranged weapon user stepping outside of typical race/class combos (Centaurs generally are Knights but get the Ranger treatment when they use bows.) Maybe a bit of a stretch but at least there is something there.

I don't like the first suggestion set at all, so I won't focus on that and instead return to using Guerrilla as a replacement for Striker and finishing off with Commando. Guerrillas are more on the untrained side but Commandos are elite units. David kind of earns this with what he does on the battlefield.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Tue Apr 23 2019 11:50pm

My issue with Commando is David clearly is seen in a leadership role through out scenario 2. Commandos are more soldiers, not leaders. The entire team taking on the tank are all Commandos, I feel he really needs a distinction that tells the players this guy is not a super soldier, this guy is a mutha truckin leader.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Wed Apr 24 2019 12:25pm

MXC wrote:100% Agree with Rune's assessment. It fits spatially so I see no issue with it.

I don't like the first suggestion set at all, so I won't focus on that and instead return to using Guerrilla as a replacement for Striker and finishing off with Commando. Guerrillas are more on the untrained side but Commandos are elite units. David kind of earns this with what he does on the battlefield.


I agree Elven is more grammatically correct, so that's a possible change. I need to check other locations first. I believe Elfin is used as descriptor for Masqurin and Syntesis in the bookcase entries, so we would probably want to make that grammar match. I'm actually a little partial to Elfin because it's different, but it doesn't work as well as a class descriptor. Another maybe lessor known reason I'm stingy with the characters is because of the ghosting text issue on the status screen, but in this case we will be gaining several characters with the change to Waltz's class.

Don't count on Guerrilla being an option. It would pair well with Commando for a military type character, but I don't think it works in this game or for this character. Truth be told, if we were doing this from scratch, Commando wouldn't be an option either. But in this case it is the legacy option. I always like to provide an option with the least amount of change because a lot of people prefer that. That being said, Striker is in at least one option for that same reason. If no suitable replacement is suggested, it will be the option for the Commando line.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Wed Apr 24 2019 5:18pm

I'd be fine with dropping Striker completely and going straight to commando.

Something like Elven Ranger -> Commando -> Marshal.


Wasn't Commando originally his second class anyway? I think we really just go sidetracked by the whole ranger issue. The real problem is Striker. Also, for those wondering. Personally, I would still prefer to just use Ranger. However, I've realized that isn't going to happen, so I have compromised with Elven Ranger.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Wed Apr 24 2019 6:45pm

Rune wrote:I'd be fine with dropping Striker completely and going straight to commando.

Something like Elven Ranger -> Commando -> Marshal.


Wasn't Commando originally his second class anyway? I think we really just go sidetracked by the whole ranger issue. The real problem is Striker. Also, for those wondering. Personally, I would still prefer to just use Ranger. However, I've realized that isn't going to happen, so I have compromised with Elven Ranger.


Marshal doesn't fit this line as well as it would the General line as it is focused on leadership. It wouldn't be a good replacement for Striker no matter which class you wanted to use it for.

The reason for this whole thing in the start was that I thought the Commando and Striker classes needed to switch places. That is, Striker be the second class and Commando, being the more impressive class, would be his final class.

Commando was always a compromise. As we've discussed, the original second class is Commander, but since we didn't want to repeat that class, Commando was the result. If there is a class name that is more impressive than Commando and would fit in the final promotion slot, I haven't heard it. I think in general this has revealed the Commando line to have weaker options than the General line.

I don't suppose I've shared the evidence that I found in the Sc1 files, since I thought everyone was on board with changing Ranger for David, but... In the English Sc1 game files on the line that would be Justin's starting class, you'll find Ranger. That is solid evidence if you weren't yet convinced.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Wed Apr 24 2019 8:37pm

legalize freedom wrote:Marshal doesn't fit this line as well as it would the General line as it is focused on leadership. It wouldn't be a good replacement for Striker no matter which class you wanted to use it for.

Why the double standard? Why does "Marshal" not fit due to focusing on leadership, but "General" does fit despite being focused on leadership? Furthermore, as knightOfdragon has pointed out many times, David is in a leadership position. He's probably outranked only by Medion and possibly Campbell. And while that detail could probably be debated, he's clearly one of the higher-ups, either way. However, that said, I'm not sure Marshal is really the best fit, anyway. But not for the reason that it focuses on leadership. That's silly. Marshal can mean either "an officer of the highest rank in the armed forces of some countries", or "a federal or municipal law officer", neither of which are particularly accurate descriptions of David, to the best of my understanding. They're nearly accurate, though. It's not exactly a huge stretch, and it would be a very cool-sounding class name.

legalize freedom wrote:Yes, perception is a concern. It is a big part of the translation's work to be in line with the English speaking culture(s).

Well, in English speaking cultures, the word "warden" just means someone who's responsible for the supervision of a place or thing. And if you shouldn't use a word just because some people might not know what it means, as you seem to be implying, then you really shouldn't use any words because there will always be at least some people who might not know what any given word means. This holds true for pretty much everything, including every other option we've discussed, and including his legacy classes.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Wed Apr 24 2019 9:45pm

legalize freedom wrote:I don't suppose I've shared the evidence that I found in the Sc1 files, since I thought everyone was on board with changing Ranger for David, but... In the English Sc1 game files on the line that would be Justin's starting class, you'll find Ranger. That is solid evidence if you weren't yet convinced.


Solid evidence of what? A class title being used for two different types in the same shining force game, or a bad translation?
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby DiegoMM » Wed Apr 24 2019 11:12pm

warden is strange
I vote for Elven Ranger.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Thu Apr 25 2019 12:11am

DiegoMM wrote:warden is strange

Why is Warden strange? Substantiate your claim. Give some sort of actual reason. Preferably one that makes sense. Warden means "a person responsible for the supervision of a place or thing." David is a person who's responsible for the supervision of Stump Village, which is a place and a thing. If Warden is strange, there must be something about that which is somehow incorrect or inappropriate. Which part of that is incorrect or inappropriate and thereby strange?
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu Apr 25 2019 1:03am

Rune wrote:
legalize freedom wrote:I don't suppose I've shared the evidence that I found in the Sc1 files, since I thought everyone was on board with changing Ranger for David, but... In the English Sc1 game files on the line that would be Justin's starting class, you'll find Ranger. That is solid evidence if you weren't yet convinced.


Solid evidence of what? A class title being used for two different types in the same shining force game, or a bad translation?


I apologize, I should have been clearer about the implications.

The devs gave Justin the starting class of Ranger, even though the player never sees this because he comes promoted. Justin (Sc1) and Waltz (Sc2) are unquestionably the same class. So it can be assumed pretty confidently that the "wrong" class was given to Waltz and David in Sc2, which is the conclusion many of us came to before even knowing about the game file reveal.

@Tor
Please read my response. I said Marshal didn't fit with the Commando line as well as it would with the General line.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Thu Apr 25 2019 2:02am

legalize freedom wrote:The devs gave Justin the starting class of Ranger, even though the player never sees this because he comes promoted. Justin (Sc1) and Waltz (Sc2) are unquestionably the same class. So it can be assumed pretty confidently that the "wrong" class was given to Waltz and David in Sc2, which is the conclusion many of us came to before even knowing about the game file reveal.

Or, at the very least, whether or not Waltz and/or David's classes were considered "wrong", it's pretty good evidence that the localization team thought it appropriate to maintain the established "Ranger" tradition of the previous localized SF games and, had they proceeded to localize SC2, Waltz would have very likely had Ranger as her class (just like Justin despite the fact that the player couldn't see that) while David would've very likely been changed to something else.

legalize freedom wrote:Please read my response. I said Marshal didn't fit with the Commando line as well as it would with the General line.

My bad. I seem to have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that Marshal doesn't fit as well as General does, and using that to discredit the suggestion of Marshal. I see now what you meant, and in hindsight, I definitely misunderstood. Sorry about that.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Thu Apr 25 2019 3:56am

Warden -> Commandant -> Marshall is sounding a lot better LOL
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu Apr 25 2019 12:08pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:Well, in English speaking cultures, the word "warden" just means someone who's responsible for the supervision of a place or thing. And if you shouldn't use a word just because some people might not know what it means, as you seem to be implying, then you really shouldn't use any words because there will always be at least some people who might not know what any given word means. This holds true for pretty much everything, including every other option we've discussed, and including his legacy classes.


It's actually a good thing when, in general, people don't know what a word means. You have a word that is a good fit and people learn something in the process. That is not the case here.

The problem is when the perceived meaning of the word is different than what you intend to use it for. It's not that they don't know it, it's that it means something different where they live. While we focus on the US and UK cultures, this patch essentially covers half the world, where words can mean slightly different things in different regions.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Thu Apr 25 2019 3:33pm

knight0fdragon wrote:Warden -> Commandant -> Marshall is sounding a lot better LOL

Yeah, actually, I'm inclined to agree.

legalize freedom wrote:The problem is when the perceived meaning of the word is different than what you intend to use it for.

You make it sound like it would just be universally misinterpreted, which is ridiculous. Some people would misinterpret it, but some people would misinterpret anything.

legalize freedom wrote:It's not that they don't know it, it's that it means something different where they live. While we focus on the US and UK cultures, this patch essentially covers half the world, where words can mean slightly different things in different regions.

Again, this is true of pretty much any given word. Literally every single option that we've discussed will be misinterpreted by some people somewhere. Even the "hunter" option would be misinterpreted by people who only know English from video games and will think it means "archer" due to MMO bias. If Warden is a bad decision because some people don't know what it means or would misinterpret it, then there's no such thing as a good option, because no matter what we pick, some people will not know what it means or misinterpret it, even if it seems obvious to us.
And you can't just say "we focus on the US and UK cultures" but then immediately throw that under the bus by saying "but this patch essentially covers half the world." Either it focuses on US and UK cultures or it doesn't. If it's going to be tailored for half the world, then it doesn't, and even then, you can't please everyone in half the world. If it focuses on US and UK cultures (which is appropriate, as this is an English localization that half the world will just so happen to also enjoy), then other cultures will just have to deal with the fact that this is an English game, and not pandering to English-as-a-second-language speakers who don't have the best grasp on the English language. Just like any other English localization, they'll just have to improve their English a bit if they want to engage with this. If you want to pander to the non-English part of the world that's going to be playing this, then just make the game in Spanish or something. It's not the English language's fault that people in other countries don't always have a perfect grasp of it. And no, as long as we're talking about US and UK cultures, the word "warden" doesn't mean anything different anywhere. It might mean something different in some foreign countries that only speak English as a lingua franca and/or secondarily, but there's no such thing as a natively English speaking country or region where "warden" just has a totally different meaning. And even if there was, who cares? That doesn't delegitimize its viability. And there might be some people who are ignorant of the fact that warden has a broader meaning outside of a jailcell, but again, that doesn't deligitimize its viability, and that doesn't mean that their region has a totally different meaning for warden. It just means that those individuals are ignorant of the broader meaning of the word.

legalize freedom wrote:It's actually a good thing when, in general, people don't know what a word means. You have a word that is a good fit and people learn something in the process. That is not the case here.

How is that not the case here? Someone playing this sees the "Warden" class. They don't know what it means or they have an incorrect perception that it only means jailer. They think "What's up with that?" They look it up to find out what's up with that. They discover that it means something broader than what they thought, where the "jailer" submeaning is just one variety of a person who's responsible for a place. Biggitty bam. They've learned something. Or are you saying, rather than that people can't learn something in this process, that Warden is simply not a good fit to begin with despite already saying in the other thread that it was an excellent and fitting suggestion?
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Thu Apr 25 2019 5:22pm

I'd like to see what a poll says for Warden versus Elven/Elfin/Elf Ranger for a starting class.

There's the concern that Warden sounds weird/wrong to people. I am of the opinion it doesn't matter why they think it sounds off, just that people don't like it. I would like to know if a minority or majority of people take issue with Warden. I gave up on Ranger because about half of people voted against it.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Thu Apr 25 2019 6:34pm

I would be happy with the five options we have now for the poll.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Thu Apr 25 2019 7:04pm

I feel less is more, but including Chieftain in the poll makes sense. Specifically I mean I want a poll that shows what people don't want as a starting class, so we can then improve the viable options.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Thu Apr 25 2019 8:45pm

legalize freedom wrote:I would be happy with the five options we have now for the poll.

I think you should add knightOfdragon's Warden>Commandant>Marshall suggestion to the poll in addition to the five options we have now.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Fri Apr 26 2019 2:04am

Commandant seems like a weaker version of Commander and Marshal seems more like an option for starting class and a weaker version of Warden. Same strengths and weaknesses. I also have come to see the weaknesses of Chieftain being too much. Not sure if it is strong enough to remain an option.

What about Guardian as a starting class option? He starts out as a guardian of Stump, Hedva, Gracia and Elbesem. He is promoted long before Gracia splits (when it would become odd). It fits both leadership and battle skills. A weakness if taken literal or fantasy-wise would be that he doesn't have that great of a defense, but I see the description more as a duty or role than a physical trait.
Last edited by legalize freedom on Sun Apr 28 2019 1:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
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