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David's Class Options

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David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Fri Apr 19 2019 4:31pm

I'm going to keep this first post up to date with all the strengths and weaknesses of the two considered class lines and their individual classes. If I started a poll today, these would be the options.


Guardian / Warden / Elven Ranger
Commander
General



Strengths of General line:
-Commander is the literal translation of his second class in the original Japanese release which he shares with all the other generals in Sc3.
-Recognizes his leadership role within the Medion army, which happens quickly as he becomes a battalion leader for the final battle.
-As with all the other general characters, he has a unique assortment of weapon skills. Notice how there is roughly a pattern of a weapon type being assigned to two of them. I'm certain if Rogan would have been finished as a playable character, he would have continued this pattern. (Halberd, Sword and Blade or Axe as a guess)

Edmund
Knife
Mace
Rapier

Produn
Tomahawk
Spear
Sword

Spiriel
Halberd
Mace
Rapier

David
Knife
Spear
Tomahawk


Weaknesses of General line:
-Original classes focus on combat abilities vs leadership
-There is nothing explicit in game that dictates he is officially promoted within the Imperial army beyond being an leading member of the Medion army, but it is reasonable that he would be



Elven Ranger*
Striker
Commando



Strengths of Commando line:
-Is closest to literal translations
-Focuses on combat abilities


Weaknesses of Commando line:
-Doesn't reflect his leadership role in Stump or in the Medion army
-Striker is a bit generic
-Commando is a little too modern military



Guardian / Elven Ranger
Commander
Sentinel



Strengths of Sentinel line:
-Infers a unique combination of leadership and combat ability
-Has a spiritual connotation that suits David well (first and final classes)
-Describes his role at each stage of the game well

He starts as someone who protects others (Stump then Gracia when he has a higher calling)
Transitioning into his unique leadership role in the Medion army, becoming a Commander well before Gracia leaves and leading up to the Juggernaut battle.
Sentinel has a bit of "holy" to it while describing him as standing tall and taking on all comers to defeat Bulzome.


Weaknesses of Sentinel line:
-Can be perceived as describing a tank type character (David has good defense, but only after promotion and even then not exactly a tank)
-Commander doesn't exactly have the same feel as the other two classes, but it is his given second class and works well when considering his role in the story
-Guardian and especially Sentinel imply a stationary unit while David is fleet of foot


Strengths of Elven Ranger:
-Keeps generally the same original starting class. Just adding a prefix to differentiate from the established Ranger class
-Is a good descriptor of what he is and what his skill set is
-Works in General, Commando and Sentinel lines

Weaknesses of Elven Ranger:
-Piggybacks off of the established Ranger class
-Is similar to the enemy Hunter Elf, but with the enemy identifier being Elf and David's being Ranger (not race)


Strengths of Warden:
-Recognizes his leadership role in Stump village without naming him chieftain
-Describes both leadership and combat abilities (if also considered an enforcer)
-Thus could work in either General or Commando line
-Works well with his role of guardian/defender of both Stump and the forest

Weaknesses of Warden:
-From a strict reality standpoint, is more of a guardian and doesn't infer combat ability
-Some initial reactions may be that of a prison warden or other law enforcement position
-Weaker version of Guardian

Chieftain since removed from contention
Strengths of Chieftain:
-David is the acting Stump village chief
-Recognizes his importance as a leader

Weaknesses of Chieftain:
-David is not thought to carry the title of Village Chief officially
-Emphasizes leadership over combat abilities
Last edited by legalize freedom on Wed Jun 12 2019 12:42pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Fri Apr 19 2019 6:34pm

I feel that that we need to get rid of striker, if we're to make progress on this.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat Apr 20 2019 8:39am

I'm inclined to agree with Rune.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Sat Apr 20 2019 12:53pm

That's why we're here.

So are you suggesting that you are partial to the Commando line, but want Striker replaced or that Striker makes the Commando line the weaker option?

I don't believe Elf Ranger or Warden work as a second class. But come to think of it Elf Ranger does work with the General line.

The only real replacement for Striker that has been suggested is Strider and I don't think that works. It suggests a traveler of sorts and David is a homeboy.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Sat Apr 20 2019 1:58pm

legalize freedom wrote:So are you suggesting that you are partial to the Commando line, but want Striker replaced or that Striker makes the Commando line the weaker option?


Both, actually. I am partial to the Commando line and want to replace Striker because it makes the line weaker.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Sat Apr 20 2019 4:17pm

legalize freedom wrote:That's why we're here.

So are you suggesting that you are partial to the Commando line, but want Striker replaced or that Striker makes the Commando line the weaker option?

I don't believe Elf Ranger or Warden work as a second class. But come to think of it Elf Ranger does work with the General line.

The only real replacement for Striker that has been suggested is Strider and I don't think that works. It suggests a traveler of sorts and David is a homeboy.



I don’t see Elf Ranger working with General, it would end up being Elf General, then we would have to assume all Elf Rangers can promote to Elf General
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat Apr 20 2019 8:53pm

legalize freedom wrote:So are you suggesting that you are partial to the Commando line, but want Striker replaced or that Striker makes the Commando line the weaker option?

Yeah, pretty much. I'm partial to the Commando line, but would like to see Striker replaced. I'm sure we can come up with something.

knightOfdragon wrote:I don’t see Elf Ranger working with General, it would end up being Elf General, then we would have to assume all Elf Rangers can promote to Elf General

Agreed.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Sat Apr 20 2019 9:31pm

David certainly comes from a different background than the other generals, but that really only affects his starting class. There's nothing that says he needs to have a different second or final class.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Hattari » Sun Apr 21 2019 3:06am

This... is a lot to consider. I'm still thinking on it, but for now I'm leaning towards commander and general for the 2nd and 3rd classes.

It's much tougher settling on what's most appropriate for the starting class. Warden describes most of his duties well enough, but for the casual English-speaking player (and there are new folks trying this game out all the time), I'd imagine it would be hard to shake the common connotation of a warden having something to do with prisoners. Generally speaking, it just feels "off" somehow.

Elf ranger also has its issues - namely in redundancy. But, it is a fair compromise and necessary distinction, with Waltz' class changing to ranger. Since the enemies are called hunter elves, perhaps it could be written out as "ranger elf" instead (similar to how Waltz was previously called "archer knight"). It's a minor thing, but still.

One advantage of giving him the same 2nd+3rd classes as the other commanders is it could potentially set up in prospective players' minds the fact that there is something these seemingly different characters all have in common... which may make it easier for the average person to discover without a walkthrough their unique weapon sets. Thematically, they also reference his leadership role, both within and without Medion's army.

I'll get back to you on the 1st class. There are fair pros and cons on all sides...
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Sun Apr 21 2019 3:37am

“Knight” is not a race. Elf is. Race normally precedes class. I think the only exception is the penguins. “Archer Knight” is a case of dual classes. In this case, the first class is his primary class, and the second class is the secondary class.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Sun Apr 21 2019 4:06am

Hattari wrote:This... is a lot to consider. I'm still thinking on it, but for now I'm leaning towards commander and general for the 2nd and 3rd classes.

It's much tougher settling on what's most appropriate for the starting class. Warden describes most of his duties well enough, but for the casual English-speaking player (and there are new folks trying this game out all the time), I'd imagine it would be hard to shake the common connotation of a warden having something to do with prisoners. Generally speaking, it just feels "off" somehow.

Elf ranger also has its issues - namely in redundancy. But, it is a fair compromise and necessary distinction, with Waltz' class changing to ranger. Since the enemies are called hunter elves, perhaps it could be written out as "ranger elf" instead (similar to how Waltz was previously called "archer knight"). It's a minor thing, but still.


If selected, I believe Warden will be a bit odd at first, but will grow on you quickly.

The reasoning behind Elf Ranger can be explained by looking at the enemy Hunter Elf. Hunter being the descriptor and Elf being what the focus is. A generic Elf that is a hunter. With David, the focus would be on Ranger with a descriptor of Elf. So a Ranger that is an Elf. It makes it more personal for him. The idea is to make it different and more meaningful than the enemy name/class. Which btw, is how you can think of enemy names as their class.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Hattari » Sun Apr 21 2019 6:05pm

When you put it like that, Elf Ranger does make more sense than Ranger Elf. :thumbsup:
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sun Apr 21 2019 8:02pm

Hattari wrote:Warden describes most of his duties well enough, but for the casual English-speaking player (and there are new folks trying this game out all the time), I'd imagine it would be hard to shake the common connotation of a warden having something to do with prisoners.

I dunno'. I mean, casual English-speaking players don't have that problem regarding the term "warden" in World of Warcraft and Warcraft III. I think your average person deserves a little bit more credit than that.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Mon Apr 22 2019 2:13pm

Bad example, in warcraft, wardens are special police force, including overseeing the jails
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Rune » Mon Apr 22 2019 6:34pm

Prison warden will always been the first thing I think of for warden. Still, I feel it is a viable option.

Also, why is Elf Ranger preferable to Elven Ranger?
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Mon Apr 22 2019 11:07pm

Rune wrote:Also, why is Elf Ranger preferable to Elven Ranger?


Primarily length, but it would work. It means the same thing in two less letters.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Tue Apr 23 2019 1:57am

Is there any text from the villagers that would make it seem like David would not run the village like a prison? As in he keeps things strict and orderly, no room for nonsense.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Tue Apr 23 2019 2:18pm

knightOfdragon wrote:Is there any text from the villagers that would make it seem like David would not run the village like a prison? As in he keeps things strict and orderly, no room for nonsense.

Warden just means someone who's in charge of maintaining an area. Someone who's in charge of maintaining a jail area is just one potential kind of warden. The fact that some people might not know that doesn't actually do anything to diminish that fact or its legitimacy. We do not need any text from villagers that would make it seem like David would or would not run the village like a prison, because no such detail is required to legitimize or delegitimize his status as their warden.

knightOfdragon wrote:Bad example, in warcraft, wardens are special police force, including overseeing the jails

I never actually realized that wardens in WoW were jailers (though I did know they were essentially Night Elven police), and I looked it up to make sure, and you're quite right, but I never thought to question the label of "warden" even without that knowledge because I understand that one need not be a jailer to be a warden. And I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I'm the only one, so there must be plenty of other people out there who also didn't know that detail and also never got confused without it.
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby legalize freedom » Tue Apr 23 2019 6:32pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:Warden just means someone who's in charge of maintaining an area. Someone who's in charge of maintaining a jail area is just one potential kind of warden. The fact that some people might not know that doesn't actually do anything to diminish that fact or its legitimacy. We do not need any text from villagers that would make it seem like David would or would not run the village like a prison, because no such detail is required to legitimize or delegitimize his status as their warden.


Yes, perception is a concern. It is a big part of the translation's work to be in line with the English speaking culture(s).
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Re: David's Class Options

Postby knight0fdragon » Tue Apr 23 2019 7:43pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:
knightOfdragon wrote:Is there any text from the villagers that would make it seem like David would not run the village like a prison? As in he keeps things strict and orderly, no room for nonsense.

Warden just means someone who's in charge of maintaining an area. Someone who's in charge of maintaining a jail area is just one potential kind of warden. The fact that some people might not know that doesn't actually do anything to diminish that fact or its legitimacy. We do not need any text from villagers that would make it seem like David would or would not run the village like a prison, because no such detail is required to legitimize or delegitimize his status as their warden.

knightOfdragon wrote:Bad example, in warcraft, wardens are special police force, including overseeing the jails

I never actually realized that wardens in WoW were jailers (though I did know they were essentially Night Elven police), and I looked it up to make sure, and you're quite right, but I never thought to question the label of "warden" even without that knowledge because I understand that one need not be a jailer to be a warden. And I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I'm the only one, so there must be plenty of other people out there who also didn't know that detail and also never got confused without it.



The reason why I asked is because the title could be symbolic, so that people who see “Warden” as somebody who runs a prison could make the connection easier. He is already given the symbolic title of Chief, so it is not like it would hurt.
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