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David's Classes Decision

Poll Closed

A place for those working on the Shining Force III Translation Patch.

What is the most appropriate starting class for David?

Poll ended at Fri Apr 19 2019 12:33pm

Hunter Striker Commando
9
50%
Fighter Striker Commando
0
No votes
Battler Striker Commando
0
No votes
Ranger Striker Commando
9
50%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Mon Apr 08 2019 9:09pm

@Rune

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"How Dwarves Dine" First is beer, then wine. The meal is fine as long as there's bread and soup!

~8-220~ Woman in House 1:
David is an excellent ranger. He watches over the whole forest and doesn't allow anyone to cause trouble.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby sulfuroxp » Mon Apr 08 2019 10:03pm

Power Ranger
End.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Tue Apr 09 2019 1:38am

Except you start FF1 with explicitly choosing your party based on their class and they have no other defining characteristics. That is a key difference. Every Black Mage in FF1 is identical.

'Cause there's sOoOoOoOoOo much variation between May, Stock, and Graham.

And FF3 is a bad choice to support your claim, as anyone can be a Black Mage in that game.

Anyone can be a black mage in FF1 as well. Like you said, you choose your party, and you're free to choose four black mages. And the fact that they're identical strengthens my argument, not weakens it. That makes it so that every black mage in the game can be reduced to just one example of a black mage, just like there's only one example of a Ranger per SF game.

And it's not 100%, it's 75%. We have David.

That's retarded. "Prior to SF3" does not include SF3. I've said again, and again, and again: "prior to SF3", or "up until SF3", or "before SF3 came along". And I've made a myriad of points pertaining to why SF3 can't be treated as an authority on this matter above literally every other game in the series. I get the impression that you're not even reading my posts. Although, to be fair, they are pretty long, so I can't entirely blame you. But nevertheless. You're either not reading my posts or you're deliberately ignoring key parts and large chunks of them.

While I agree Waltz's class should be changed to match the rest of the series, I also agree that Ranger is a good fit for David. Maybe we just add Elf and everyone is happy...?

I can accept this compromise. I believe knightOfdragon suggested the same thing a couple pages back. Said something about using (Adjective) Ranger just like there are (Adjective) Knights. Although I still think that Hunter is better, this at least works without compromising the lore too badly.

Know what would really solve the issue? My suggestion :lol:

Striker
Guerrilla
Commando

I also think that this suggestion by MXC is better than Elf Ranger as well. This option seems perfectly adequate to me.

Or Hunter, Guerrilla, Commando haha

This could potentially work too, but I see no reason to strike striker (pun intended not intended). There's nothing wrong with striker. It doesn't really have any immediate need to be changed like Ranger does.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Tue Apr 09 2019 3:12pm

legalize freedom wrote:@Rune

~8-236~ Bookcase in Inn/Tavern:
"How Dwarves Dine" First is beer, then wine. The meal is fine as long as there's bread and soup!

~8-220~ Woman in House 1:
David is an excellent ranger. He watches over the whole forest and doesn't allow anyone to cause trouble.



Thanks. I was hoping for something about the forest elves’ diet. Whether they eat meat or not would strengthen/weaken the argument for Hunter.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Tue Apr 09 2019 6:16pm

Rune wrote:Thanks. I was hoping for something about the forest elves’ diet. Whether they eat meat or not would strengthen/weaken the argument for Hunter.


Agreed. That is a weak spot for Hunter. I'm not sure killing wildlife is his thing. He got the spear skills somewhere. We just don't know if it might have been repelling aggressors and/or training in preparation to vs actual hunting.

Maybe there are more clues around the village. If there is nothing but fruit and veggies on the tables...
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Wed Apr 10 2019 1:50am

He's the leader of a forest community in a pre-industrial society. You're damn right he hunts. He wouldn't be seen as a leader in such an environment if he wasn't putting food on the table.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Wed Apr 10 2019 2:10am

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:He's the leader of a forest community in a pre-industrial society. You're damn right he hunts. He wouldn't be seen as a leader in such an environment if he wasn't putting food on the table.


There's a good possibility that forest elves are vegetarians. But Gatherer ain't such a hot class name. :)

But I tend to agree that they would hunt...
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby knight0fdragon » Wed Apr 10 2019 12:22pm

legalize freedom wrote:
Tor_Heyerdal wrote:He's the leader of a forest community in a pre-industrial society. You're damn right he hunts. He wouldn't be seen as a leader in such an environment if he wasn't putting food on the table.


There's a good possibility that forest elves are vegetarians. But Gatherer ain't such a hot class name. :)

But I tend to agree that they would hunt...



Oh they hunt, that is why they are notorious for being archers.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Wed Apr 10 2019 6:05pm

Two other relevant (old translation) lines are:

Man in the Bar:
The harvest in Barrand was very bad this year because of the very changing weather... That?s why they have run out of food... We?re very lucky that there?s a lot of fruit to eat in this forest...


Dwarf Dressed in Yellow:
I and the the other tribes of the wood defend and protect the Sea of Forests from wild animals and other creatures that live in this area. The Sea of Forests lies between the territories of the Empire and the Republic. But it still remains under our control.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Thu Apr 11 2019 3:40pm

Neither of those lines preclude the practice of hunting.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Thu Apr 11 2019 8:14pm

I am not saying they do, but if we're even considering changing David's class, we should think carefully if a different title actually fits.

And KOD, how notorious of archers are the wood elves? Of the two that join the party, neither wields a bow.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby MXC » Thu Apr 11 2019 8:51pm

Looks like my comments got some traction in here. That's a good start.

Each of the current starting class suggestions are flawed for being either generic or having use elsewhere in the series (Ranger). Striker has more specific connotations than any of the starting class suggestions but is still vague enough to be an initial class.

That's why I laid out my suggestion in that form. And for those that don't know, a Guerrilla, as defined by dictionary.com is: a member of a small independent group taking part in irregular fighting, typically against larger regular forces. This definition could kind of apply to everyone but in giving the class to David, it evokes guerrilla warfare and David's diversity. Commando feels like a natural progression from this as well.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Fri Apr 12 2019 2:24am

I know it's not part of the poll, but I was just thinking earlier today while taking a walk. What if his classes weren't so associated with his armaments at all? David's so much more than just another armed recruit, and since he's also such a unique character, perhaps his job class could be something that reflects that?

It's been awhile, so forgive me if some of what I'm remembering is a bit off, but as I recall, right when you meet him he's the leader of the village where he lives. Then, even after joining your party, he's frequently involved in matters of the plot. Offering his opinions on matters such as strategy, diplomacy, not to mention his authoritative personality resulting in him being put in charge of the second force during the final battle. Perhaps generic classes like Ranger and Hunter could be saved for more generic characters, and David could be given titles more closely tied to who he is, and the skills he brings to the Shining Force outside of simply running around with a spear or knife. The already existent Commando could become Commander, and some other possibilities could be Chief, Leader, or General. Since he's already a unique class, something of that nature could further accentuate his status as such, while also serving to be more intimately connected to who he is as a whole, accounting for his entire arsenal of skills both on and off the battlefield.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Fri Apr 12 2019 4:35am

I am not saying they do, but if we're even considering changing David's class, we should think carefully if a different title actually fits.

I'm fine with using a different title. It doesn't have to be Hunter. Just as long as it's appropriate and not Ranger. Hunter is a title that actually fits, but of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't other potential titles which could also fit or even fit better. So in this regard, I agree with you.

That's why I laid out my suggestion in that form. And for those that don't know, a Guerrilla, as defined by dictionary.com is: a member of a small independent group taking part in irregular fighting, typically against larger regular forces. This definition could kind of apply to everyone but in giving the class to David, it evokes guerrilla warfare and David's diversity. Commando feels like a natural progression from this as well.

Guerilla works very well too, I think. I have no qualms with this. It also falls in line with Striker and Commando a whole lot better than Hunter does. I think we should seriously consider this option.

Perhaps generic classes like Ranger and Hunter could be saved for more generic characters, and David could be given titles more closely tied to who he is, and the skills he brings to the Shining Force outside of simply running around with a spear or knife. The already existent Commando could become Commander, and some other possibilities could be Chief, Leader, or General.

I actually think that Chief works very well. Arguably better than Hunter. We can presume with a fair degree of reasonableness that he does, in fact, hunt, but there's no presumption necessary when it comes to Chief. He is a chief, and no one can really dispute that. I think this option should also be seriously considered.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Fri Apr 12 2019 12:36pm

DomingoRules! wrote:It's been awhile, so forgive me if some of what I'm remembering is a bit off, but as I recall, right when you meet him he's the leader of the village where he lives. Then, even after joining your party, he's frequently involved in matters of the plot. Offering his opinions on matters such as strategy, diplomacy, not to mention his authoritative personality resulting in him being put in charge of the second force during the final battle.
...
The already existent Commando could become Commander, and some other possibilities could be Chief, Leader, or General. Since he's already a unique class, something of that nature could further accentuate his status as such, while also serving to be more intimately connected to who he is as a whole, accounting for his entire arsenal of skills both on and off the battlefield.


We might be on to something here... or returning to it. It has been suggested that he should be a General like Produn, Spiriel, Edmund, etc. I can see that solving a lot of problems.

I'm not a fan of having such specific military classes as Guerrilla and Commando. It just doesn't seem to fit. Not only in the game, but David as a character.

If we made David share his final two classes with the other generals (Commander, General) it would make a lot of sense. All the general characters have odd weapon combinations. Commander is the literal translation of his second class. And as a character he does take a leadership role very quickly. To top it off there are no general characters in Sc2.

Of course then we would be back to deciding on a starting class, but with a better focus of what that class could/should be. Chief is a good start. It's unique and describes a tribal leader. Maybe there is something better... or one of the existing options.


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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Fri Apr 12 2019 3:52pm

David's background may not be as a member of the military, but he veritably becomes one upon joining the Shining Force, so by time he's promoted he would certainly have those same qualifications.

Either way though, those were just the first examples that came to mind of authoritative job classes (and honestly I couldn't remember if characters like Produn already shared some of those classifications). I'm sure there's plenty of other options, including perhaps ones that would be better suited for David specifically; maybe if something like D&D has specific terms for high ranking officers who are elves or forest dwellers. My point is simply that because he has a unique class, and actively serves a larger role in the party than fighting, I feel we could do more than simply look at his weapons for labeling him; as opposed to other character who are either much more generic in the personal role they play, or belong to a widely shared job class. David's much more than just another guy with a sword, and because he doesn't suffer the inhibition of sharing his job with other characters, I believe he deserves recognition of his abilities as a whole.

Heck, we could even take a route of expanding upon more generic classes. Like how Lemon in Shining Force 2 is a Red Baron, as opposed to just Baron like Jaha and Randolf. David could be something like a Chief Ranger, implying that he's much more than a standard Ranger while also opening up the possible use for the Ranger class for other characters, if so desired down the line.

As for the part about him specifically sharing class names with the likes of Produn and Edmund, while I suppose that could work, I feel like one problem is that the convention of the SF3 trilogy (convention being a word that I imagine people being sick of hearing in this thread at this point, judging from when I skimmed through to try and see if my point about David had already been made) dictates that they don't only use strange weapons, but can also cast magic; a skill David lacks. Now, I wouldn't say that disqualifies him outright from the concept of sharing their class, but I do believe it should be considered as a con for the decision.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby knight0fdragon » Fri Apr 12 2019 4:24pm

DomingoRules! wrote:David's background may not be as a member of the military, but he veritably becomes one upon joining the Shining Force, so by time he's promoted he would certainly have those same qualifications.

Either way though, those were just the first examples that came to mind of authoritative job classes (and honestly I couldn't remember if characters like Produn already shared some of those classifications). I'm sure there's plenty of other options, including perhaps ones that would be better suited for David specifically; maybe if something like D&D has specific terms for high ranking officers who are elves or forest dwellers. My point is simply that because he has a unique class, and actively serves a larger role in the party than fighting, I feel we could do more than simply look at his weapons for labeling him; as opposed to other character who are either much more generic in the personal role they play, or belong to a widely shared job class. David's much more than just another guy with a sword, and because he doesn't suffer the inhibition of sharing his job with other characters, I believe he deserves recognition of his abilities as a whole.

Heck, we could even take a route of expanding upon more generic classes. Like how Lemon in Shining Force 2 is a Red Baron, as opposed to just Baron like Jaha and Randolf. David could be something like a Chief Ranger, implying that he's much more than a standard Ranger while also opening up the possible use for the Ranger class for other characters, if so desired down the line.

As for the part about him specifically sharing class names with the likes of Produn and Edmund, while I suppose that could work, I feel like one problem is that the convention of the SF3 trilogy (convention being a word that I imagine people being sick of hearing in this thread at this point, judging from when I skimmed through to try and see if my point about David had already been made) dictates that they don't only use strange weapons, but can also cast magic; a skill David lacks. Now, I wouldn't say that disqualifies him outright from the concept of sharing their class, but I do believe it should be considered as a con for the decision.

Negative on the casting of magic, Spiriel and Rogan cannot cast magic, only Produn and Edmund can
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby MXC » Fri Apr 12 2019 5:14pm

DomingoRules! wrote:David's background may not be as a member of the military, but he veritably becomes one upon joining the Shining Force, so by time he's promoted he would certainly have those same qualifications.

But is he trained in formal military combat? No, and that's why guerrilla becomes a fitting name.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Fri Apr 12 2019 5:20pm

I propose the following:
Guerrilla -> Gorilla -> Gorerilla
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