David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04 2019 1:04pm
by legalize freedom
I'd like to get feedback regarding a possible change to David's classes. His current classes seem odd.

Ranger
Commando
Striker


Striker doesn't seem like final promotion worthy, esp next to all the other grand names. Commando would seem to be a more appropriate final class.

I also noticed plain old Fighter isn't used anywhere in the rest of the game, which would be very fitting given the situation we find him in Stump (basically rebelling and fighting back against the Bulzome Sect).

Here are some possibilities:

Fighter
Ranger
Commando

Ranger
Fighter
Commando

Ranger
Striker
Commando


Please let me know what you think of these or suggest others.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04 2019 11:11pm
by Special T
I think Fighter, Ranger, Commando is the best combination.

If I'm reading wikipedia correctly it looks like striker is a lower rank so it wouldn't make sense to use that as the final promotion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_enlisted_rates

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06 2019 4:59pm
by Rick
Ranger
Striker
Commando

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06 2019 8:46pm
by DiegoMM
For me Fighter sounds like Zylo, Gerhalt and Frank class, like a Brawler.
So I go too with
Ranger
Striker
Commando

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08 2019 8:47pm
by knight0fdragon
Was never a fan of him being called a Ranger. That class is normally designated for an archer, not a person who throws other kinds of weapons

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10 2019 2:21am
by Bulzome
I'd have to agree that "Ranger" doesn't quite seem like an appropriate class for David. I like "Fighter" and "Battler" for his starting class.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11 2019 6:06am
by knight0fdragon
The closest thing I could find is a Peltast, which is a type of Greek infantryman who specialized in throwing javelins.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11 2019 4:00pm
by Chinagonuk
I feel like Commando is best for his middle class since he is basically being a commando when he attacks the tank at the end of Scenario 2.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11 2019 7:33pm
by legalize freedom
Chinagonuk wrote:I feel like Commando is best for his middle class since he is basically being a commando when he attacks the tank at the end of Scenario 2.


That was an early reaction from me also until I realized he led an entire battalion. Commando's are solo specialists, correct?



Knight0fDragon wrote:Was never a fan of him being called a Ranger. That class is normally designated for an archer, not a person who throws other kinds of weapons.


In D&D terms, a Ranger is more of a jack of all weapon types who is in tune with the wilderness. In those terms, David probably fits the bill.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12 2019 4:36am
by knight0fdragon
we aren't playing D&D, we are playing Shining Force lol. In Shining Force 2, May is a Ranger, and she is a centaur Bowman, which would be Justin if you did not already get him promoted.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12 2019 7:24pm
by Rune
legalize freedom wrote:
Chinagonuk wrote:I feel like Commando is best for his middle class since he is basically being a commando when he attacks the tank at the end of Scenario 2.


That was an early reaction from me also until I realized he led an entire battalion. Commando's are solo specialists, correct?


I thought the term was more directed at highly trained special ops, with the idea of anyone working solo to be Hollywood nonsense. Doesn't the Hollywood nonsense usually require some ridiculous sequence of events, that causes someone to go solo (like their daughter is kidnapped, command refuses to send anyone, or the rest of their term is killed)?

Also I think Ranger fits in well, if we're using commando in the modern sense, since wikipedia gave me this from the commando page: The US Rangers were founded by Major General Lucian Truscott of the US Army, a liaison officer with the British General Staff. In 1942, he submitted a proposal to General George Marshall that an American unit be set up "along the lines of the British Commandos".

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12 2019 7:30pm
by legalize freedom
Interesting. It looks like they've used Ranger / Bow Knight for the centaur archers, maybe better described as shell users or artillery while the humanoid races use the standard Archer / Sniper classes.

May in SF2 as well as Stock and Graham in SFCD. Lyle from SF1 also would fall into this category, but his official classes were Assault Knight and Strike Knight. So that gives us some more info to draw from.

The fact that David isn't a centaur may be what is driving opinions against Ranger.


Some interesting Commando info on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando
After 1945
After World War II there was much publicity about the deeds of "the commandos"; many civilians reading these accounts, guessing a meaning from the context, thought in error that the singular "a commando" meant one man, and that usage became general.

It would be interesting to tie his class to Israel's commandos given the real world David, but I didn't see anything suitable...

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12 2019 7:56pm
by MXC
Green Beret is another term that comes to mind.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13 2019 5:21am
by knight0fdragon
Rune wrote:
Also I think Ranger fits in well, if we're using commando in the modern sense, since wikipedia gave me this from the commando page: The US Rangers were founded by Major General Lucian Truscott of the US Army, a liaison officer with the British General Staff. In 1942, he submitted a proposal to General George Marshall that an American unit be set up "along the lines of the British Commandos".



Personally, I do not think we should be using modern definitions of anything, because in modern warfare, everybody is an "archer" since guns are the primary weapon now in a skirmish. The only reason I would even agree with using Commando is for the special forces type definition of it, as it is seen as somebody who possesses a wide range of skills.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13 2019 5:24am
by knight0fdragon
legalize freedom wrote:Interesting. It looks like they've used Ranger / Bow Knight for the centaur archers, maybe better described as shell users or artillery while the humanoid races use the standard Archer / Sniper classes.

May in SF2 as well as Stock and Graham in SFCD. Lyle from SF1 also would fall into this category, but his official classes were Assault Knight and Strike Knight. So that gives us some more info to draw from.

The fact that David isn't a centaur may be what is driving opinions against Ranger.


Some interesting Commando info on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando
After 1945
After World War II there was much publicity about the deeds of "the commandos"; many civilians reading these accounts, guessing a meaning from the context, thought in error that the singular "a commando" meant one man, and that usage became general.

It would be interesting to tie his class to Israel's commandos given the real world David, but I didn't see anything suitable...


Real world David? I assume you are referring to the biblical version of David that many people think he is derived from. (Surprised he wasn't given a sling tbh lol)

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13 2019 1:22pm
by legalize freedom
knight0fdragon wrote:Real world David? I assume you are referring to the biblical version of David that many people think he is derived from. (Surprised he wasn't given a sling tbh lol)


No, the Israeli singer this character was based off of. Surely you remember.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-L0s_98CAI

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13 2019 3:21pm
by knight0fdragon
Actually I was not aware of this duo, I only knew of the connection with David from David and Goliath. That is rather interesting.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18 2019 1:22pm
by legalize freedom
Based on these opinions, I have three sets of classes I could live with and will start a poll soon.

Last chance to get your opinion on the ballot!

Voice support for certain classes or share new ideas!

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10 2019 1:43pm
by Swalchy
*le bumpety bump*

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10 2019 3:29pm
by WolfTJD
bump! @ legalize freedom!!

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10 2019 4:05pm
by legalize freedom
There have been two additional potential classes mentioned.

Battler
This should definitely be included for consideration. Defined as an underdog of sorts.

Brawler
A good class name, but doesn't quite fit David. Defined as a boisterous melee fighter.


The point of Ranger not fitting has been well taken. Removing Ranger from David's classes would keep in line with having Ranger be only for centaur archers and could be Justin's unseen starting class. This would be in line with the rest of the series. That is not to say we need to decide that way, but it does tilt the scales. I'm certainly warming to the non-Ranger options, but the options are robust either way.

I think we can go with Commando as the final class. It's mainly the first two that are in question, but I will include an interesting option with Striker as the final.


Options with Ranger

Ranger
Striker
Commando

Fighter
Ranger
Commando

Battler
Ranger
Commando

Ranger
Battler
Commando

Options without Ranger

Fighter
Striker
Commando

Fighter
Battler
Commando

Battler
Striker
Commando

Fighter
Battler
Striker


Thoughts or suggestions? I'd like to pare this down to around 3 options as to not water down the vote.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11 2019 12:21am
by Swalchy
I like the option of:

Fighter
Striker
Commando

Fits well methinks.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11 2019 2:00am
by knight0fdragon
Swalchy wrote:I like the option of:

Fighter
Striker
Commando

Fits well methinks.


Motion is seconded

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14 2019 11:37am
by Medion
Swalchy wrote:I like the option of:

Fighter
Striker
Commando

Fits well methinks.


I also vote for this one :thumbsup:

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14 2019 11:59am
by Stordarth
I'm not a fan of fighter in this context, and also find ranger odd given sf rangers in the past.

I propose:

Striker
Skirmisher
Commando

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20 2019 12:39pm
by legalize freedom
Skirmisher is a good class name, but I'm not fond of the length. It's as long or longer than Commando, which is already too long. It legally fits, but makes the bar oddly long in that part of the game. It will work much better as the final promotion when all the bars are really long from HP.

Maybe I should have proposed Cocksman...

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20 2019 3:44pm
by MXC
Super Soldier :jk:

Striker
Guerrilla
Commando

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20 2019 6:17pm
by knight0fdragon
Was Bombarder ever mentioned?

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20 2019 6:32pm
by legalize freedom
No, I trust you mean bombardier. Again, pretty long and implies explosives.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22 2019 2:40pm
by knight0fdragon
No, a bombarder, not a bombardier, as in a person who bombards

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23 2019 2:30pm
by legalize freedom
What about Huntsman?

Suggested by the LPer Let's Play Like We're Elite.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25 2019 12:21am
by Hattari
Honestly, I think Ranger works just fine for David's first class. I don't think the species of a single character from a separate game (May) is substantial reason to make that distinction.

It's also more descriptive and accurate than something like Fighter, as it clearly hints to the player that he's capable of using ranged weapons specifically and exclusively. Also, just as May was the only character of her type in SF2, David is one of a kind in SF3, so in that sense, it's fitting that they shared that title.

That's just my two cents. Personally, I'd vote for keeping his jobs the same as they literally were in the Japanese release, but that's just me. Since it sounds like they're going to be changed regardless, I do think Striker-Commando works well as tier2-tier3.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25 2019 6:26pm
by legalize freedom
Hattari wrote:Honestly, I think Ranger works just fine for David's first class. I don't think the species of a single character from a separate game (May) is substantial reason to make that distinction.

It's also more descriptive and accurate than something like Fighter, as it clearly hints to the player that he's capable of using ranged weapons specifically and exclusively. Also, just as May was the only character of her type in SF2, David is one of a kind in SF3, so in that sense, it's fitting that they shared that title.

That's just my two cents. Personally, I'd vote for keeping his jobs the same as they literally were in the Japanese release, but that's just me. Since it sounds like they're going to be changed regardless, I do think Striker-Commando works well as tier2-tier3.


Thanks for your input!

It's not just a single character. Earlier in this thread...

Interesting. It looks like they've used Ranger / Bow Knight for the centaur archers, maybe better described as shell users or artillery while the humanoid races use the standard Archer / Sniper classes.

May in SF2 as well as Stock and Graham in SFCD. Lyle from SF1 also would fall into this category, but his official classes were Assault Knight and Strike Knight. So that gives us some more info to draw from.


I understand wanting to keep something exactly like it was in Japanese, but there is a certain amount of judgment and decision making involved. Can you imagine the obstacle course between the Japanese class and Commando? You have to decide on the closest match in a lot of cases and focus on the intent. And frankly, some words (classes in this case) are more intense than others. If a starting class came out as Super Ninja and the next class came out as Hobbit, you would rightly consider swapping the two. ;)

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25 2019 8:47pm
by Hattari
legalize freedom wrote:You have to decide on the closest match in a lot of cases and focus on the intent. And frankly, some words (classes in this case) are more intense than others. If a starting class came out as Super Ninja and the next class came out as Hobbit, you would rightly consider swapping the two. ;)

I understand where you're coming from there, but I don't think we're dealing with anything close to that kind of a leap here. I do acknowledge that some titles and classifications don't crossover well verbatim between languages; I'm just not convinced this is one of those cases. I was wrong about May being the only centaur ranger, but I did read the entire thread. For some reason I mistakenly remembered the SFCD characters being called bow knights, but that's not true, so please disregard that point. The others still stand! :p

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25 2019 11:38pm
by Nuburan
Is it too late to suggest "scout," for its connotations of mobility and light weaponry?

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26 2019 1:09am
by legalize freedom
Hattari wrote:I understand where you're coming from there, but I don't think we're dealing with anything close to that kind of a leap here. I do acknowledge that some titles and classifications don't crossover well verbatim between languages; I'm just not convinced this is one of those cases.


Thank you for prodding me to do a little more research.

What we know as Commando translated as Commander. We didn't use Commander for David because all of the General characters (Rogan, Edmund, Produn, Spiriel) use it as their second promotion. They all literally share class name lines. David does not, however and doesn't share any other classes with them.

So Commando was a logical result of that problem. But Commando is perceived far more intense (or cool if you will) than Commander or even Striker so the order doesn't feel right. Add that to the length of his bar at that point in the game and it adds up to a change.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26 2019 1:41am
by knight0fdragon
I definitely like Huntsman, or even hunter, since a javelin, dagger, and hatchet would be expected from this type of person.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26 2019 10:32pm
by Hattari
legalize freedom wrote:What we know as Commando translated as Commander. We didn't use Commander for David because all of the General characters (Rogan, Edmund, Produn, Spiriel) use it as their second promotion. They all literally share class name lines. David does not, however and doesn't share any other classes with them.

So Commando was a logical result of that problem. But Commando is perceived far more intense (or cool if you will) than Commander or even Striker so the order doesn't feel right. Add that to the length of his bar at that point in the game and it adds up to a change.

That's a perfect example of what I was implying would be a reasonable change; in fact, the original katakana could easily be read as Commando as-is.

Nuburan wrote:Is it too late to suggest "scout," for its connotations of mobility and light weaponry?

I support this suggestion. It's certainly more fitting than fighter.

knight0fdragon wrote:I definitely like Huntsman, or even hunter, since a javelin, dagger, and hatchet would be expected from this type of person.

I think hunter works better than huntsman.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29 2019 6:23pm
by legalize freedom
There seems to be enough support for Hunter to add to the poll.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04 2019 7:54pm
by nicbongo
Alright,

so my two cents:

Considering he's an elf, and you find him in a forest village trying to protect someone, I think something like this is appropriate:

Ranger--> Guardian --> Warden

I don't like the commando/fighter terms so much as it has more human connotations.

Thoughts?

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05 2019 12:04pm
by legalize freedom
nicbongo wrote:Alright,

so my two cents:

Considering he's an elf, and you find him in a forest village trying to protect someone, I think something like this is appropriate:

Ranger--> Guardian --> Warden

I don't like the commando/fighter terms so much as it has more human connotations.

Thoughts?


I appreciate your feedback, but this is the oldest of the three David class discussion threads.
Vote for your choice here:
https://forums.shiningforcecentral.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=44720

While you're at it, please vote on the spell name poll as well.
https://forums.shiningforcecentral.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=44644

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06 2019 7:03am
by DomingoRules!
legalize freedom wrote:I appreciate your feedback, but this is the oldest of the three David class discussion threads.
Vote for your choice here:
https://forums.shiningforcecentral.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=44720

It may just be me, but there's something funny about there blatantly being so many threads about the one subject.

Re: David's Classes

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06 2019 6:38pm
by knight0fdragon
Locking