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Hero Final Class

Poll

A place for those working on the Shining Force III Translation Patch.

What should the three heroes' final class be? See first post for details.

Poll runs till Wed Oct 09 2019 12:49pm

Apostle
3
21%
Light Apostle
2
14%
We need a better word than 'Apostle'
9
64%
 
Total votes : 14

Hero Final Class

Postby legalize freedom » Tue Jun 11 2019 12:49pm

The three heroes' final class is Light Apostle. I find that a bit redundant in that it can be assumed an Apostle would serve Elbesem. I propose changing it to simply Apostle.

The primary reason for this is length. It currently overlaps badly on the game load screen. I'm hoping taking it down to just Apostle would fix that entirely. It would also help with the status screen text ghosting and make other areas cleaner.

The argument against this change is that the word Apostle in the real world is primarily a Christian term and using it without the Light modifier gives it an odd religious bend.

Do you agree that Light Apostle and Apostle mean the same thing here? Please vote in the poll to guide this decision.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby knight0fdragon » Tue Jun 11 2019 2:20pm

Light Apostle != Apostle of Light. We do not call White Mages Mages of White or Knight0fDragon Dragon Knight (The origin of my handle came about from an old video game character I made of a knight who served a dragon, not a knight embodied by a dragon.)

Personally, this is where "Champion" comes into play the strongest (Actually Champion of Light). Synbios, Medion, and Julian are not technically Apostles in the western sense. They do not spread the teachings and word of Elbesem
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DomingoRules! » Tue Jun 11 2019 2:32pm

Between the two, I can agree with just going for Apostle for the sake of looks. All adding the word "light" does is differentiate an apostle following an Innovator from one whom supports a Vandal, which in the game the player doesn't need context for, so for the player's sake the "light" part is already implied; although if there were any standard dialogue where the job class is brought up, it might fit better to use the full Light Apostle. An abbreviation to L. Apostle could also work, but might look out of place if no other job class in the game uses an abbreviation.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby Rune » Tue Jun 11 2019 6:22pm

knight0fdragon wrote:Light Apostle != Apostle of Light. We do not call White Mages Mages of White or Knight0fDragon Dragon Knight (The origin of my handle came about from an old video game character I made of a knight who served a dragon, not a knight embodied by a dragon.)

Personally, this is where "Champion" comes into play the strongest (Actually Champion of Light). Synbios, Medion, and Julian are not technically Apostles in the western sense. They do not spread the teachings and word of Elbesem


I more or less agree with this. I hadn't thought of it before, but KoD is right that they don't actually really fit the definition of apostle.

Also, Light Apostle (instead of Apostle of Light) makes me think the alternative is Heavy Apostle.

To be clear, this means my vote is nope-nope.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby RedArcher » Tue Jun 11 2019 7:27pm

knight0fdragon wrote:Personally, this is where "Champion" comes into play the strongest (Actually Champion of Light). Synbios, Medion, and Julian are not technically Apostles in the western sense. They do not spread the teachings and word of Elbesem


I also think that Champion is a more suitable choice for the Hero final class. Both Apostle of Light and Light Apostle just don't sound right to me.
Last edited by RedArcher on Mon Jul 08 2019 4:58pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DiegoMM » Wed Jun 12 2019 2:00pm

Yea, but champion is nowhere in the original, so its not a translation and I think is going far in localization.
If we are making things up, we can change almost all classes to what we think is cooler or apropriate.

Light Apostle get the job done very well. If was me making the game I wouldnt call them that, but its SF3, not my game.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby knight0fdragon » Wed Jun 12 2019 7:53pm

DiegoMM wrote:Yea, but champion is nowhere in the original, so its not a translation and I think is going far in localization.
If we are making things up, we can change almost all classes to what we think is cooler or apropriate.

Light Apostle get the job done very well. If was me making the game I wouldnt call them that, but its SF3, not my game.



Quite a number of things are not "in the original"

The game is not a 1:1 translation, a lot of things would not make sense to the western audience if it was. The word "Apostle" in Japanese does not translate into English the way you think it does.
It is being used as highest ranking member "Leader of Elbesem" for our leader class and disciple ("Follower of Elbesem") for the remaining force members, which is why Gracia also makes our force members Apostles, but none of their ranks reflect it.

The western world uses Apostle in the messenger aspect, which our three leaders are not. This means we should look at synonyms to Apostle to try and fit the western audience, and that is where Champion comes in.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DomingoRules! » Wed Jun 12 2019 9:32pm

And speaking of changes for the sake of localization, I highly doubt Sega would've used the word Apostle if they had localized the game back in the day, although that would've probably been strictly to avoid religious reference, rather than being concerned with whether or not it's appropriate.

Of all the heroes, I feel as though Apostle really only takes Julian into consideration. I'm not saying it's a perfect fit, and Champion does seem better suited for the role he plays, but the fact that he's much more tied to Gracia makes the title of Apostle feel much more relevant to him, whereas Synbios and Medion just kind of wind up inadvertently adopting it as well due to also being main characters. If we're to change the class entirely, maybe it should be something that's more universally suited to all three of them, rather than favoring one over the others.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby knight0fdragon » Fri Jun 14 2019 2:05pm

Since 4 of us feel Apostle is possibly the wrong term, I added a third option. Those 5 people that voted will need to vote again.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby RetroZanon » Fri Jun 14 2019 7:42pm

What if their class was revamped?

Swordsman > Bladesmaster(?) > Hero/Warrior (of Light)
Swordsman > Warrior > Hero (of Light)

Just a suggestion really. The word "Apostle" never seemed to be fitting.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby Rune » Fri Jun 14 2019 8:31pm

Yeah, I kinda feel this is the sort of thing that will take a few topics to sort out and may be more trouble than David's classes.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby legalize freedom » Fri Jun 14 2019 9:36pm

For this particular poll, it's a simple choice between the way it is currently and the one option as an improvement for V21. Votes for neither obviously won't impact the decision.

Any further discussion can happen organically.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby Lord Oddeye sama » Fri Jun 14 2019 11:13pm

I'd also pick champion as the final class. I briefly considered crusader but I prefer the more neutral choice.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby legalize freedom » Sat Jun 15 2019 12:36am

I believe I'm on board. My mindset was that if a drawn out discussion needed to happen, it could happen after this decision, but the more I think about it, this one seems easy. Champion fits in every way and Apostle doesn't in a couple of important ways.

So the thing we need to discuss, that hopefully won't be too difficult is what Penn's second class should be.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby Ansa » Sat Jun 15 2019 10:41pm

legalize freedom wrote:I believe I'm on board. My mindset was that if a drawn out discussion needed to happen, it could happen after this decision, but the more I think about it, this one seems easy. Champion fits in every way and Apostle doesn't in a couple of important ways.

So the thing we need to discuss, that hopefully won't be too difficult is what Penn's second class should be.

Same, Champion fits perfectly imo.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DomingoRules! » Sun Jun 16 2019 5:38am

legalize freedom wrote:I believe I'm on board. My mindset was that if a drawn out discussion needed to happen, it could happen after this decision, but the more I think about it, this one seems easy. Champion fits in every way and Apostle doesn't in a couple of important ways.

So the thing we need to discuss, that hopefully won't be too difficult is what Penn's second class should be.

I've always felt as though Champion for Penn was a play on an emperor penguin, without them wanting to actually use the word emperor because of the existence of a prominent empire in the game's story. Perhaps we could come up with a different alternative based on that same idea?

What were Penn's three classes again? I forget.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby legalize freedom » Sun Jun 16 2019 3:08pm

DomingoRules! wrote:I've always felt as though Champion for Penn was a play on an emperor penguin, without them wanting to actually use the word emperor because of the existence of a prominent empire in the game's story. Perhaps we could come up with a different alternative based on that same idea?

What were Penn's three classes again? I forget.


Here is the original change thread:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=24590&#p669046

There is a dedicated thread to talking about Penn's class if you haven't seen it yet.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=44723
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DomingoRules! » Mon Jul 08 2019 4:40pm

I've been lately revisiting Shining the Holy Ark, and in that Galm seems to refer to the spirits, or those who've been imbued by the spirits, as the Apostles of Light. Feel like that could be further reason to not use that for the final class, since the way Galm used the term seemed to imply that status belonging to those who have a connection to the spirits, which doesn't apply to Synbios, Medion, or Julian. Unless I'm just overthinking it because of the line reminding me of this thread.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby knight0fdragon » Mon Jul 08 2019 5:12pm

He is not necessarily talking about the actual spirit in this case, it is more along the line of them being blessed by the light, which is what the spirit represents. This is why Gracia is able to promote everybody else, and their by the entire force becomes apostles of light.
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Re: Hero Final Class

Postby DomingoRules! » Tue Jul 09 2019 3:44am

That does fit better. I was just reminded of this thread when reading that line, and felt compelled to comment to some capacity.
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