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David's Classes Decision

Poll

A place for those working on the Shining Force III Translation Patch.

What is the most appropriate starting class for David?

Hunter Striker Commando
9
50%
Fighter Striker Commando
0
No votes
Battler Striker Commando
0
No votes
Ranger Striker Commando
9
50%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Fri Apr 12 2019 6:47pm

Chieftain would fit nicely.

Chieftain
Commander
General


It could also be worked in a couple of lines where the townsfolk call him "leader".
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Fri Apr 12 2019 8:33pm

Myself, I could live with that. Something about assigning him existing classes within shining force 3 annoys me, but I could live with it.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Fri Apr 12 2019 10:10pm

knight0fdragon wrote:Negative on the casting of magic, Spiriel and Rogan cannot cast magic, only Produn and Edmund can

In my defense, I've only beaten the game once, and recruited neither Spiriel nor Rogan when I did. Only Produn, although I also have a tiny bit of experience with Edmund as well from when I was curious about what level Scenario 3 would start you at if not loading a save from a previous Scenario. I just assumed that since Produn and Edmund both have magic, all others of their same class would as well.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat Apr 13 2019 12:39am

Rune wrote:Myself, I could live with that. Something about assigning him existing classes within shining force 3 annoys me, but I could live with it.

I'm inclined to agree with Rune on this one. I could live with it, but it does kind of annoy me that we would be assigning him existing classes within SF3. Especially when, as has been noted, he actually lacks magic, which is kind of a defining feature of those classes.

MXC wrote:But is he trained in formal military combat? No, and that's why guerrilla becomes a fitting name.

Indeed. "General" is an extremely formal title. David may have joined the Medion army, but in a very informal capacity. He's not like, on some military registrar somewhere. In an official capacity, he likely wouldn't be recognized, which would certainly be a requirement for a title such as general. Though this is only speculation, though, of course.

I really like Chieftain, and I really like Guerilla. I don't know what the hell "Striker" is even supposed to mean. Sounds like "guy what hits things." lol.

At this point, I'm inclined to propose Chieftain > Guerilla > Commando.
Last edited by Tor_Heyerdal on Sat Apr 13 2019 10:54am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Sat Apr 13 2019 5:16am

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:Indeed. "General" is an extremely formal title. David may have joined the Medion army, but in a very informal capacity. He's not like, on some military registrar somewhere. In an official capacity, he likely wouldn't be recognized, which would certainly be a requirement for a title such as general. Though this is only speculation, though, of course.

I'm not saying this to dispute your statement, but reading this paragraph just got me thinking that I'm sure Medion would have the authority to have David made a general (at least under himself) if he had half a mind to do so, and David were consensual.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Rune » Sat Apr 13 2019 7:38am

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:At this point, I'm inclined to propose Chieftain > Guerilla > Commando.


I also considered this, but I not convinced Guerrilla is a higher rank than Chieftain. To me it doesn't sound like a promotion.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat Apr 13 2019 10:46am

DomingoRules! wrote:I'm not saying this to dispute your statement, but reading this paragraph just got me thinking that I'm sure Medion would have the authority to have David made a general (at least under himself) if he had half a mind to do so, and David were consensual.

You know, that's a really good point. Medion does have a very high position of authority in the Empire as a prince ("prince of an Empire" sounds kind of ridiculous when I say it out loud, but hey, so does "king of the Republic", so whatever, I guess xD). If anybody would have the ability to enact such a thing, it would be him and his brothers. However, even with that, there is still the problem of the inconsistency regarding the whole "lack of magic" problem with that particular class label.

EDIT: Oh. Wait. I just noticed knightOfdragon's comment about Spiriel and Rogan not being able to cast magic. I mean, I read it, but I wasn't really "listening to myself" when I read it, if that makes sense (a bad habit I have... ADHD, you see...). And yeah, that's right, isn't it? Okay. Yeah. In that case, the General line could actually work...

Rune wrote:I also considered this, but I not convinced Guerrilla is a higher rank than Chieftain. To me it doesn't sound like a promotion.

Also a very good point. And I had actually already thought this, but now that someone else has voiced it and I'm now forced to confront that point from the perspective of being on the other side of an argument from it, I'm inclined to very much agree. Chieftain > Guerilla doesn't exactly sound like a promotion. It sounds like a sidestep at best, or even a downgrade. Guerilla > Chieftain would definitely sound like an upgrade, but it wouldn't really make much sense due to the fact that he was already a chieftain to begin with. How can you promote to something that you already are, right? Chieftain > Striker sounds like a sidestep or a downgrade as well. And like I said before, Striker doesn't even really make much sense in the first place, because it's vague as all hell. It works as a promotion from Ranger, but from Chieftain? Hmm. Not so much, does it? I'm all for keeping Commando in the mix, though. And I actually really love the idea of Chieftain. I think that's my favourite suggestion so far. But I'm not really sure what to do about that second class. I'm sure we can come up with something, though. Also, at risk of jinxing it, I feel like we may be coming closer to something resembling a consensus. lol.

Is the poll able to be adjusted so that we can put the Chieftain > ? > Commando line into it once we work out the Underpants Gnome factor (ie, figure out a good class 2 label)?

EDIT: Now at this point, I feel like I'm leaning more towards Chieftain > Commander or Commando (probably Commander for the sake of consistency) > General.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Sat Apr 13 2019 1:00pm

Yes, this poll was premature. We will have another, but with more interesting choices. :)

The Chieftain really only works with the Commander > General line.

For the Striker > Commando line it will need to be Elf Ranger, Hunter, etc.


Keep in mind when these happen, esp for the General line. Chieftain first half of Sc2, Commander second half of Sc2, General end of Sc3.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sat Apr 13 2019 1:50pm

legalize freedom wrote:Yes, this poll was premature. We will have another, but with more interesting choices. :)

Right on.

legalize freedom wrote:The Chieftain really only works with the Commander > General line.

Well, for now. Up until someone comes up with something else with which it could also work. Which may or may not happen, but it certainly could.

legalize freedom wrote:Keep in mind when these happen, esp for the General line. Chieftain first half of Sc2, Commander second half of Sc2, General end of Sc3.

Well, yeah, of course.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DiegoMM » Sat Apr 13 2019 1:59pm

I feel giving General class to David is like giving A Wizard class to Marky and Hedva, its close enough but its different, in the original we have General and Striker class side by side, and assigning a already existing class is crossing the line for me. If it was the intention to give David military authority the developers would had done that in sc3, but they gave him a class which focus is much more the combat.

Its not the worst thing in the world he becomes a general, but feels strange for me. When I think about David comes in mind a dynamic and agressive fighter, not a formal leader with shinig armor like Produn.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Sat Apr 13 2019 2:41pm

legalize freedom wrote:Keep in mind when these happen, esp for the General line. Chieftain first half of Sc2, Commander second half of Sc2, General end of Sc3.

That stream of events is why I was thinking that it might be good to consider the end of Sc2 in deciding his second class. Giving him a title that would complement Medion's confidence in his leadership abilities that resulted in Medion wholeheartedly entrusting him with the final operation, but without outright telegraphing it in advance. Something like Commander or Captain would definitely achieve that, giving him authority to take part in meetings and such, but without giving him too much responsibility outright compared to Medion and his advisor (I forget who his advisor is). Not to mention it would also fit as a last-minute promotion in preparation for that final battle, in the event that the player wasn't using him until that point. Then, after having been granted the responsibility to lead his own unit during the final operation in Sc2, the next obvious step would be a promotion that further endows him with even higher authority as recognition for that momentous achievement.

He goes above and beyond for the Shining Force, being more than just a soldier like the rest, so definitely deserves that to be reflected in his promotions; especially if promotions are some sort of divine rite divvied out by the gods (which is how I always saw it, being performed at a church) as a reflection of one's innate abilities.

If not military ranks though, then perhaps something more informal that expresses the same thing, although I can't think of much off the top of my head for that.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sun Apr 14 2019 4:19am

DiegoMM wrote:I feel giving General class to David is like giving A Wizard class to Marky and Hedva, its close enough but its different, in the original we have General and Striker class side by side, and assigning a already existing class is crossing the line for me.

At risk of sounding flip-floppy, I guess you're right.

What about maybe Chieftain > Champion > Commando? Or perhaps Chieftain > Primal > Commando?
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Sun Apr 14 2019 1:05pm

@DiegoMM
If you mean that you believe David should be unique (speaking in doubt of the general line), he will be for his first class. By the time he's promoted, he'll have grown into the establishment enough to be a Commander and obviously after he orchestrates the take down of the Juggernaut, he will have earned the General he gets in Sc3.
Having him be unique all the way through will still be an option with the Commando line. I believe I have the options in mind, but want to make sure it's not premature again. :blush:


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We and the other forest tribes protect this forest so its wild animals can live free and in safety. That's because neither the Empire nor the Republic can reach the interior of this forest to exert their power.

Nothing definitive, but it doesn't look good for the carnivore aspect...
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Sun Apr 14 2019 4:03pm

legalize freedom wrote:~8-217~ ~Yellow~ Dwarf 5 in Dwarves House:
We and the other forest tribes protect this forest so its wild animals can live free and in safety. That's because neither the Empire nor the Republic can reach the interior of this forest to exert their power.

Nothing definitive, but it doesn't look good for the carnivore aspect...

There never was any carnivore aspect. Their participating in hunting does not entail that they only eat meat. However, even if it did, nothing about that makes it "not look good" for the carnivore aspect. From a humanoid context, the statement that the animals can live free and in safety doesn't mean that they're never hunted. It just means that their populations as a whole are not in danger due to the prevention of overharvesting via the exclusion of the Empire and the Republic. Unless you can show a line of dialogue that explicitly states that this is actually a wildlife reserve, then it's not exactly reasonable to assume that he's not talking about populations considered as a whole across time rather than each and every individual animal at all times. However, that said, I don't think it really matters, as I get the impression that most of us have moved past the idea of Hunter anyway, in lieu of the more fitting options which have come to light.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Sun Apr 14 2019 4:53pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:
legalize freedom wrote:~8-217~ ~Yellow~ Dwarf 5 in Dwarves House:
We and the other forest tribes protect this forest so its wild animals can live free and in safety. That's because neither the Empire nor the Republic can reach the interior of this forest to exert their power.

Nothing definitive, but it doesn't look good for the carnivore aspect...

There never was any carnivore aspect. Their participating in hunting does not entail that they only eat meat. However, even if it did, nothing about that makes it "not look good" for the carnivore aspect. From a humanoid context, the statement that the animals can live free and in safety doesn't mean that they're never hunted. It just means that their populations as a whole are not in danger due to the prevention of overharvesting via the exclusion of the Empire and the Republic. Unless you can show a line of dialogue that explicitly states that this is actually a wildlife reserve, then it's not exactly reasonable to assume that he's not talking about populations considered as a whole across time rather than each and every individual animal at all times. However, that said, I don't think it really matters, as I get the impression that most of us have moved past the idea of Hunter anyway, in lieu of the more fitting options which have come to light.


Pardon me. Mesocarnivore aspect. :stare:
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Sun Apr 14 2019 6:11pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:What about maybe Chieftain > Champion > Commando? Or perhaps Chieftain > Primal > Commando?

Personally, I feel as though Primal falls more into a berserker archetype. It makes the character sound powerful, but mindlessly bloodthirsty or aggressive. At least that's what comes to my mind when I consider the prospect of using the word as a job class. Either that, or used as an alternative for a beastman character instead of simply listing their race as a class.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby Tor_Heyerdal » Mon Apr 15 2019 8:52am

DomingoRules! wrote:Personally, I feel as though Primal falls more into a berserker archetype. It makes the character sound powerful, but mindlessly bloodthirsty or aggressive. At least that's what comes to my mind when I consider the prospect of using the word as a job class. Either that, or used as an alternative for a beastman character instead of simply listing their race as a class.

Fair enough that that's what comes to your mind, but that's not actually what that word necessarily entails. It makes him sound powerful, yes, which was the intention. But it doesn't necessarily suggest bloodthirstiness, aggressiveness, or mindlessness.
1: Relating to an early stage in evolutionary development; primeval.
2: Essential; fundamental.
I was going for a combination of both of these meanings simultaneously. The first meaning can basically be broken down as "primitive" (notice the root connection between PRIMal and PRIMitive), which is appropriate because he lives out in the woods without the trappings of modern society (I mean "modern" from an in-game context, of course). The second definition is also appropriate because, as the chieftain of his people, he is certainly essential. I still kind of lean more towards "Champion", however, which is why I mentioned it first. While it's fair enough to presume that Medion COULD bestow David with a rank of Commander or General, he never actually does so, so it would be kind of presumptuous of us to just shoehorn that in there, I think. However, he most certainly proves himself as one of Medion's most indispensable champions throughout the course of the story. As such, I think Champion would be very appropriate. Although as one of Medion's most indispensable champions, he is also quite essential to Medion's Force, and therefore, Primal fits pretty well too, I think. He's essential to Medion, he's essential to his people, and he leads a primitive lifestyle. I'd say Primal fits the bill pretty well. So does Champion. I like the idea of either of them, and I hope that people might consider these suggestions; the thread seems to be petering off at this point...

legalize freedom wrote:Pardon me. Mesocarnivore aspect. :stare:

I stand by my statement. Carnivore. Mesocarnivore. Omnivore. The actual point still remains, which was that there's been nothing to discredit the idea that they hunt game. Whether or not that game constitutes the bulk of their diet is irrelevant. Also, David is frickin' ripped. You don't get a physique like that without some significant protein in your diet, and he's sure as hell not gettin' that from forest berries and mushrooms.
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby legalize freedom » Mon Apr 15 2019 12:09pm

Tor_Heyerdal wrote:David is frickin' ripped. You don't get a physique like that without some significant protein in your diet, and he's sure as hell not gettin' that from forest berries and mushrooms.


Beans, man. Good for the heart. :thumbsup:
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DiegoMM » Mon Apr 15 2019 1:57pm

Sorry to bring a new word, but anyone thought about Strider?
1 - Its a word related to Ranger in every lord of the ring inspired story
2 - Gives the idea of a dynamic, moving hero in the battlefield
3 - Gives me the feeling that its more experienced than ranger, like the guerrila name suggested but without the heavy military conotation, sound like a fantasy guerrila.

Hunter - Commando - Strider
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Re: David's Classes Decision

Postby DomingoRules! » Mon Apr 15 2019 2:40pm

Not to sound pompous, but I know what primal means. It's just that generally speaking, the word is usually only associated with humans when talking about things like cavemen, so that's the sort of thing that comes to mind when applied as a class. Still, your point is solid.

As for strider, I don't think that would be a terrible choice if going down the more generic soldier class route, so long as your first point is valid. I don't read enough to know the frequency of that word being used outside a character name in Lord of the Rings, as the only other fantasy realm in which I've seen it used is the Strider video game series.
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