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What would you change?

Incorporating Scenarios 1, 2, 3 and the Premium Disc, all in one handy board!

What would you change?

Postby daveshan » Sun Dec 09 2018 12:56am

Say that Sega calls you up and asked for your help remaking SFIII. Their first question is what they should change in this new versions. You can make as many of few suggestions as you like.

Mine:

1. All the hidden items are instead in very visible treasure chests in their original locations. Apart from what you get by talking to people, the game feels too guide-dang-it. It's a break in immersion and enjoyment to have to go through the different guides and figure out what they're pointing to in order to get every item.

2. Penguins can use all cursed items without problems. And only cursed items. They're such hard characters to get, but have no real reward or niche that they fill. This would make them, if nothing else, fun additions to your force.

3. If any 'laser eye' enemy doesn't have a target, their turn is passed over without showing the animation.



What are your choices?
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Maeths » Sun Dec 09 2018 9:00am

The voice acting
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DiegoMM » Sun Dec 09 2018 12:48pm

1 - No friendship or weapon level progression, substitute for something that works better and is more tactical. No weapon triangle too, a failed attempt that not add too much to the system.

2 - Better character development for spiriel, rogan and some others.

3- Synchronity choices with more rewards
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DomingoRules! » Tue Dec 11 2018 8:58am

DiegoMM wrote:1 - No friendship or weapon level progression, substitute for something that works better and is more tactical. No weapon triangle too, a failed attempt that not add too much to the system.

I would keep the weapon level progression, but give it to enemies as well. It felt really pitiful when you're fighting adversaries that are equally if not more so experienced at combat than your characters, yet are distinctly less capable due to lacking special techniques, or wielding underpowered magic.

My main thing though would be to add more playable characters. Granted the weapon progression does provide a bit of variety with how you build your party members in place of having extra characters who all do pretty much the same thing, I just can't get over how the Genesis titles gave the player a larger party than those on a next gen console.

I'd also probably make it so you don't need a stupid map to enter the ruins. Those places get tricky enough in the later scenarios/chapters with needing to play them almost perfectly turn after turn to successfully grab some of the treasures without needing to be bothered with finding a map just to enter them at all. Maybe instead of a requirement for entering the ruins, the maps could perhaps provide simple hints on clearing their respective dungeons, such as classes that work well or perhaps a clue as to how to effectively chase down any thieves.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Chinagonuk » Tue Dec 11 2018 3:21pm

daveshan wrote:All the hidden items are instead in very visible treasure chests in their original locations. Apart from what you get by talking to people, the game feels too guide-dang-it. It's a break in immersion and enjoyment to have to go through the different guides and figure out what they're pointing to in order to get every item.?


Personally I wouldn’t do this. The world was different in the 90s. The game designers were not thinking about people using the guide to get every item each time you played. The thrill of accidentally discovering something that no one else has, is a feeling that young gamers cannot experience anymore. Back then they wanted replay value and they included plenty of items so you could make do with what you find. I prefer games (especially RPGs) the old school way and I never use a guide on the first playthrough.


DiegoMM wrote:No friendship or weapon level progression, substitute for something that works better and is more tactical. No weapon triangle too, a failed attempt that not add too much to the system.


In my opinion, the Friendship, Weapon Level and Weapon Triangle (and moreover, the hidden Weapon Special Property) systems are what makes SF3 so incredibly good. In a normal playthrough, you can make it through without needing friendships or weapon properties. But on Insane Mode, mastering these techniques can by the difference between life and death. That being said, I would tweak the systems a little to make them more enjoyable. I would take away the random element of getting Soulmate and replace it with something else. Maybe an item you need to take to a church or something like that.

I love fantasising about a SF3 remake or even a SF4. SF3 is my fave game of all time so I wouldn’t want to change any of the fundamentals. Firstly, obviously, a graphical overhaul would be nice. I would like to see more varied animations on the attack screens and would love it if you could see all the different weapons being used.

Gameplay wise, I wouldn’t change much but I would have a few tweaks here and there. I would like to have a couple of extra item slots on each character but only for weapons/accessories (maybe 2 seperate inventories for weapons/accessories and items). When attacking or spell casting I would like to be able to choose which weapon to use from the items in inventory. This would cut out the need for constantly re-equiping different weapons and rings.

I would include more special attacks based on friendships. For example, It would be cool if Synbios and Dantares could perform some kind of double special attack if they were Trusted or higher and standing adjacent to each other.

Many people complain that SF3 is too linear. I would combat this, not by adding SF2 style free-roaming, but by adding many, many extra battles and towns in the form of side quests. Also, I would like there to be different story paths based on your actions and the answers you give to questions. Multiple endings and many more secrets would make me want to play again and again.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Musashi » Mon Feb 25 2019 5:40pm

I posted my thoughts awhile back:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=26251

I like that idea of team attacks too!
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Re: What would you change?

Postby rid1ey » Thu Feb 28 2019 8:16pm

the synchronicity system is seriously half baked considering the game was was designed in 3 parts most likely with this in mind. The final collection of characters should differ drastically with an alternate play through not just active roster.

Maybe 2-3 extra characters each scenario ...a chance to win over defecting bosses (traitors) or something along those lines.

Weapons available limited to synchronicity choices too ... not just forging! Like Summon Wands.


Jane being active in premium disk once saved and staying active regardless if you start new game plus.

Those shoddy portraits from innovator promotions redone!


I think having a Holy Ark save file giving a bonus or something cool would also be good! Like Yogurt playable.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby thiagopol » Fri Mar 01 2019 1:36am

In my opinion I would change some things:

- Developing better and more unique 3D animations of each character, much of the 3D battle sprites are recycled from similar rigger models, examples: Julian, Medion and Synbios share the same models of 3D animations as Dantares, Cybel, Donhort, Campbell and others use the same rigger (skeleton animation) animation.

- Develop further the plot by exploring the characters and plot, the story created in Shining Force III is very rich but ends up being run on some points.

"Destonia never appeared as an exploitable city, we only visited the Destonia docks, this could be explored further.

- Increase the quantity of items, weapons

- Create more spells and special attacks, create a much wider variety since many special attacks are recycled between the characters

- Increase the amount of enemies and battles, make the game even longer and longer.

- To make better use of the reserve team of each Scenario, some reservations are only stored and are not very useful, in Scenario 3 this is more serious, we will have many reservations without utility at the end of the game, at least in Scenario 1 and 2 the reserve characters are used for some purpose, but this concept could be broadened.

There are many other ideas, Shining Force III is such an incredible jgo being the way it already is, hard to believe that it's 20 years leaning on saturn.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Cullsoft » Sun Mar 03 2019 12:19pm

I've got a few ideas (some credible rather than fantasy and lunacy :lol:) I ought to compile sometime, but following this one:

thiagopol wrote:- Create more spells and special attacks, create a much wider variety since many special attacks are recycled between the characters


One thing that really irked me about the primary healers (Grace, Uryudo and Isabella) is that they all have the same spell sets, whilst other magic using classes had unique sets. Wish they'd mixed some of these up a bit too (e.g. swapping Antidote with Tornado or Support).
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Pappets » Tue Mar 05 2019 12:39am

1- Just two special attacks for each character. SF3 has too many specials which ended up in many being pratically the same as others. And many are stupid.

2- The friendship between characters would not decrease when someone gets killed, or at least not immediately, because that causes unnecessary frustration and stress on the player;

3- The penguins would be pure support characters with support magic spells only to increase the others status like attack up, defense & agility up, critical up, luck up, movement up, (not counter up because I don't like it), healing herbs, healing drops, healing potions and goddess tears effect up, and even boost friendship and boost experience points (these two last could be their friendship effect).

4- Change Julian's argument to exist in Sf3 because it's too damn shallow. All he wants is to take revenge on Galm for killing his father. A very classic argument from 1980s that you see in movies like the 1st Mad Max. When I think about it, i ask myself "How can Julian be a main character in SF3 when his only goal is to kill Galm?" Not to mention that Galm is an enemy far beyond his level. And that Kunoichi (which I don't remember her name) has pratically the same argument which is take revenge on Yasha for killing her father. Gracia should have been the main character of scenario 3 but since he is not a swordman that couldn't happen. The main hero MUST be a swordman. A very classic concept in the RPG's of the 1990s. I bet that was a tabu back then.

5- Make the fights against the bosses more team like for the enemy NPCs. I don't know if you understood what i said. Let me explain: The battles against the bosses end up almost always with our battalion against the boss alone, one single character. SF3 is not the type of RPG to battle against one single character. It has a battle system which you control several characters so it doesnt make any sense that you end up fighting against one character alone like if this was an RPG with only one character to play with. The battles should have more then one boss or other characters almost as strong as the boss.

6- The main characters, Synbios, Medion and Julian, would have dialogues. SF3 is not the type of game to have silent heros.

7- A battle map creator in premium disk.

8- Mithril weapons NOT for sale as regular weapons, in scenario 3. They lose all they glory. And less of them.

9- Mithril accessories could be chosen by the player.

10- No more exit and go back in in the mithril store to get the mithril item.

11- 3D models for all weapons and accessories.

12- A more exciting quest in scenario 3 after the great battle in Aspia Castle. The game loses it's glory past this point. Most battles seem to be just fillers. Nothing really exciting. Even the argument to battle against the rainbloods and the Yashas is trivial. It's just Emperor Domiric wanting revenge for not succeding anexing Aspinia to the Empire. Not to mention that at this point we are heading towards Bulzome castle. Our concern is with the Bulzome Sect. But we're still fighting against the Empire.

13- The scenarios 2 and 3 hero's test dungeons are too damn boring. The levels are always the same. And scenarios 1 and 2 dungeons, and maybe scenario's 3 also, happen in a very inapropriate moment. Synbios and Medion need to rush but they are hanging around in dungeons, wasting time.

14- All friendly NPC characters in battle, controllable. You know who i mean, don't you? DONHORT! The player can control refugees but not Donhort nor Melinda? Seriously?! How come?

15- Make the Kraken like how it should have been. Not like a regular giant octopus.

16- Make the elbesem orb more relevant in battle. For such a powerful and relevant item told in story, it falls to be trivial in the battle system. Give it a status up spell, or heal, or aura, or immunity to the wearer to status conditioning. Or instant kill against undead or monsters.
Last edited by Pappets on Tue Mar 05 2019 6:11pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DiegoMM » Tue Mar 05 2019 3:33pm

Pappets, I really like all of your arguments!
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DomingoRules! » Tue Mar 05 2019 7:20pm

Speaking of heroes always having a sword, the Atelier series is an RPG franchise that definitely broke away from that trope. Heck, if I recall correctly (it's hard to remember for sure since the series was never localized outside Japan until the 6th entry, which is thus the first I played), the hero from the 7th entry in the series (Atelier Iris 2) was notable as being the very first main character in the series to wield a sword, since the main protagonist is always an alchemist, and thus more wizard-like in terms of abilities and equipment.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DiegoMM » Tue Mar 05 2019 11:35pm

Now I cant stop thinking in a Swordsman Gracia joining in all scenarios instead of Julian and wielding the Elbesem Sword.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby legalize freedom » Thu Mar 07 2019 1:37pm

It would be nice to see weapon levels without it needing to be equipped. Maybe stars on the item itself when it was in your inventory, if not a dedicated section in the item screen. If you went that far you could have progress bars to the next level.

(maybe just for SF4)
I would also like to see minor actions incorporated. Each turn you have 1 minor and 1 major action. Minor would be using an item or changing equipment (as much as you need to change, not 1 thing), major would be attacking or possibly extra movement.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Pappets » Thu Mar 07 2019 6:13pm

legalize freedom wrote:I would also like to see minor actions incorporated. Each turn you have 1 minor and 1 major action. Minor would be using an item or changing equipment (as much as you need to change, not 1 thing), major would be attacking or possibly extra movement.


I think that the action scenes in all shining force games are a thing of the past. It was something that was needed if the developers wanted to show the characters' actions in close range because when the player is on tactic mode he or she watches the battlefield from a birdview perpective and the characters are all small little sprites and so if the camera were to zoom in all the player would ever see would be blurred sprites. The only reason I think of to use action scenes is to show a more detailed background/enviroment. Or if the developers, for some reason, make the character in sprites in the battle map and then in 3D in the actions scenes.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DomingoRules! » Fri Mar 08 2019 4:38am

Extra movement in exchange for attacking could be neat. Like one or two extra clutch spaces to get a critically injured character out of harm's way, or close enough to a healer to retrieve treatment on the next turn. Could especially be useful on characters like birdmen and centaurs that can oftentimes find themselves distant from the rest of the party, only to then wind up in sudden danger due to being overwhelmed without nearby aid.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Cosine » Mon Mar 25 2019 2:32pm

Just a few thoughts... and spoilers for Scenarios 1 & 2...

Archer Knights, when equipped with a Shell, would wield a shoulder mounted cannon like Lyle from SF1; the character the class was based on in the first place. Humanoid Archers would lose the ability to equip Shells, but would be able to equip daggers instead.

Some characters would come preset with friendship bonuses. For example: Rock and Waltz would join as "Friends" and Hedva and David would join as "Soulmates". Other related characters would automatically have preset friendships through all the scenarios too. For example: Produn and Obright would have an automatic friendship, Justin and Edmund, Hayward and Garosh, Zero and Eldar, etc.

Rock and Waltz would actually appear in Scenario 1 in the Balsamo imperial barracks. They technically do... but they don't have their faces or sprites at that time...

Cybel would be a fielded enemy in the Varlent battle in Scenario 2, but would desert her battalion when the Medion Army advanced far enough.

Much like the attack stat, magic would also have its own stat that levels up too.

Some "yes/no" choices would actually matter. For example: when Domaric orders Medion to execute Cyos, agreeing to do so would actually play a scene in which Medion dutifully performs the execution for his father.

Synbios would never speak. Ever. And would be rewritten to justify this, like he lost his voice due to a wound or illness or something. And Medion and Julian would never become mutes in their respective scenarios.

Garosh and Jade's generic brother would be given a unique character model/sprite, face portrait and name. I think this would make losing all their siblings more impactful and dramatic.

Jade's class would be changed to a Steam Knight. The Steam Knight class would also have a character specific 3rd equipable weapon. For example, apart from Shells and Anchors: Ratchet would be able to equip Broadswords, Robby would be able to equip Claws and Jade would be able to equip Spears (which would be launched from his cannon).

Garosh's class would be changed to a Commando. Seems like a good fit.

Recognizing himself as a protector of Gracia, David would feel obligated to join Julian's force but would make the difficult decision to stay with the Medion Army to instead continue to assist and defend the Prince.

Jade could not enter the ancient tank. Grantack and Medion would instead be riding with Jade alongside the ancient tank when talking to and distracting Garvin as Zero and Campbell fly/ride in behind carrying David, and the other members of the 2nd battalion for dropoff. This scene would obviously change if Jade was dead. I just think it's silly that they're talking to Garvin in a moving tank the size of a building while they just stand there in an open field.

Jade would actually be a proper boss if Garosh was rescued by Synbios.

Since Robby and Jade would both be Steam Knights, the player would be given the opportunity to transfer Robby to Scenario 3 for the early game. Being a product of the Ancients, Robby would recognize Gracia as the God Child, and would attempt to join Julian's force to defend Gracia. This could be prevented by the player, and Robby would remain in the Medion Army if so desired.

Domaric would not be accompanied by generic imperial knights during battle in Scenario 2. Instead, he would only be accompanied by Fiderit and (if ya got him) Rogan.

At some point in Scenario 2, Fiderit would accuse Zero of being a spy for the Republic. I always thought that Zero's allegiance not being questioned was a missed opportunity.

Outfit picker. Characters would be able to revert back to a previous outfit/appearance if you don't like their new looks on promotion.

Color editor. I think it would be pretty cool to make your army more uniform to give the impression that they're actually a part of an unified squad. The 2nd promotion of Dantares and Cybel have similar color schemes that give this impression, and it would be cool to manually adjust other characters in the same vain to further this image... or make everyone rainbow colored...

Power Undies, when used, would cast the Charm spell and would make Soulmates easier to obtain when worn.
The Loincloth, when used, would cast the Attack spell and would also make Soulmates easier to obtain when worn. Easier Soulmates would be a hidden attribute.

The flowers obtained from Masqurin would be the only obtainable flowers in all scenarios. This means, to gain access to a late-game scenario 2 ruin, you would have to give the flowers to Julian in Scenario 1, then from Julian to Medion before he departs the imperial army.

Bird Knights would be able to equip the Hero specific weapons, such as the Phoenix Sword and Justice Sword.

Frank would be immune to the Curse status effect. Might be a bit broken, but it would make for a fun Easter egg. Warewolves are pretty cursed to begin with after all.

Frank, when unequipped of a weapon, HAS NO ARM. I'm pretty sure that this is just a mistake, but I would actually make this canon in the story; he lost his arm and now has a weaponized prosthetic limb.

Synbios would actually be wielding a shield in his 2nd promotion class. His map sprite has one, but his battle model doesn't... another mistake.

Campbell is clearly wielding a sword in the box art for Scenario 2. I would remove one of the three pole-arms from his arsenal and replace it with the broadsword family of weapons.

The game would explain why Justin doesn't have a tail. His map sprite, battle model and even his concept art surprisingly all match in depicting him with no tail. That's no mistake, and I demand to know.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby DomingoRules! » Tue Mar 26 2019 3:45pm

You're not the only one who's wondered about Justin's tail. I played through the game for the first time a couple years ago, and was so confused by it that I started a topic to discuss the matter.
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Re: What would you change?

Postby legalize freedom » Tue Mar 26 2019 6:21pm

Well thought out, Cosine!
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Re: What would you change?

Postby Cosine » Wed Mar 27 2019 2:54pm

Oh! I'd also add some accessories to patch up some of my least favorite aspects of the game (damn you Soulmates!!!).

New accessory: "Friendship Bracelet". Friendship ranks require slightly less points to advance up, and friendship ranks would not demote on defeat of the equipped character. The bracelet would, of course, have "BFF" spelled out in block beads.

New accessory: "Turncoat". The tattered remains of General Edmund's cloak. The equipped character would be able to target, attack and cast hostile magics on allies. If Edmund is not rescued by Galm, then this accessory could be found washed ashore somewhere during Scenario 2 on the world map.

New accessory: "Engagement Ring". Significantly increases the chances of a successful Soulmate roll. Only four would be obtainable.
The first one would be granted by inspecting the ground where Fafhard dies. This is a reference to the affair that he had with Basanda.
The second would be a drop from Crewart. This is a reference to his infatuation with General Spiriel.
The third would be dropped by killing Stella. An obvious gift from General Produn.
The fourth would be equipped on Spiriel if she made it to scenario 3. An obvious gift from General Franz.
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