Welcome to the Shining Force Central Forums!
SFC Forums Index Shining Forums Shining Force III
Register for your free forum account now or Login to remove this advert.

paul_met's patch option

It's kind of problematic

Incorporating Scenarios 1, 2, 3 and the Premium Disc, all in one handy board!

paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Wed May 15 2019 1:38am

Now, I'm not sure if it has been a common occurence or not, but when patching with this option enabled, the game becomes unstable and often crashes after the battle animations finish (despite the music continuing).

I don't know if it is a widespread problem or limited to certain dumps, but at least the one I made behaves this way, so maybe a warning could be added to the patcher (as redoing the patching process without pal_met's modification could be considered a troubleshooting step).
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby knight0fdragon » Wed May 15 2019 4:13am

Red_Shine wrote:Now, I'm not sure if it has been a common occurence or not, but when patching with this option enabled, the game becomes unstable and often crashes after the battle animations finish (despite the music continuing).

I don't know if it is a widespread problem or limited to certain dumps, but at least the one I made behaves this way, so maybe a warning could be added to the patcher (as redoing the patching process without pal_met's modification could be considered a troubleshooting step).



Is this on emulator or hardware?
knight0fdragon

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 1196
Joined: Fri Nov 05 2004 5:36am
Location: Good ol(Not Really) Pennsylvania USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Wed May 15 2019 4:35am

Sorry, I wasn't specific. I'm emulating, as I don't have my saturn anymore (sold it many, many moons ago).
I'm using Yabause (a better fork of it, called Kronos).
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby knight0fdragon » Wed May 15 2019 5:05am

Yeah, emulators are play at your own risk, my software is designed for hardware only. When I tested Paul's patch it ran fine. There is no near perfect emulator for saturn, and with different configurations required for every machine, it really isn’t worth the effort to post warnings about what may or may not work.
knight0fdragon

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 1196
Joined: Fri Nov 05 2004 5:36am
Location: Good ol(Not Really) Pennsylvania USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Wed May 15 2019 6:10am

Yes, I realize that. Mednafen is pretty accurate but a pain to use, so I don't know, maybe it works with the patch, but Yabause and its forks definitely do not. The game runs fine without paul_met patch applied mind you, so I just want to bring this up in case others run into similar problems.
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Wed May 15 2019 12:05pm

It works flawlessly on hardware and on SSF, which were the primary ways to play when it was created.

It's an option for that very reason and for preference I suppose.

Doesn't Yabause have detailed resolution options? If that's the one I'm thinking of, I'm betting there is something in the settings. Maybe that's Mednafen... A curiosity, but the optional 5 lines of pixels (or whatever it amounted to) probably isn't worth worrying about for the non-curious. It's not going to impact your experience.

I believe you are the second person to report this. I will add a warning in the patch Read Me / Instructions. Thanks for reporting!
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Wed May 15 2019 8:25pm

legalize freedom wrote:It works flawlessly on hardware and on SSF, which were the primary ways to play when it was created.

It's an option for that very reason and for preference I suppose.


Yes, I understand that SSF/Hardware are the preferred forms of play (and it is even recommended in the FAQ), so this leads me to believe the paul_met patch interacts poorly with parts of Yabause's code. I know I'm an outlier for using it instead of SSF, so I appreciate the support.

legalize freedom wrote:Doesn't Yabause have detailed resolution options? If that's the one I'm thinking of, I'm betting there is something in the settings. Maybe that's Mednafen... A curiosity, but the optional 5 lines of pixels (or whatever it amounted to) probably isn't worth worrying about for the non-curious. It's not going to impact your experience.


Yes, in fact, Kronos (the Yabause fork I use) can upscale and filter the Saturn's output. Not perfect, mind you, but cool nonetheless, and it does make the patch kind of moot. I haven't used Mednafen, but it has been touted as the be all, end all option for Saturn and PS1 emulation. Frankly the lack of UI in mednafen is horrid for me, and I have been less than successful with frontends, and SSF also has horrible usability in my book, which is the reason I try to avoid it if I can. Sorry for the rant by the way.

legalize freedom wrote:I believe you are the second person to report this. I will add a warning in the patch Read Me / Instructions. Thanks for reporting!


Thank you so much for your kindness, you guys rock on, Shining Force should be proud to garner that kind of dedication, especially when Sega themselves couldn't care less about one of their greatest franchises.

Edit: Would it be okay if I renamed this thread and made it as a sort of unnofficial Yabause (and its forks) support area for SF3 players? I know I'm the minority in the community at large, but maybe I am able to help non SSF users, if they happen to exist. Just today I realized while testing that setting the text speed to "fastest" and enabling VDP 1 cache also crashes yabause randomly during spell effects, for example.
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Fri May 17 2019 12:15pm

Thanks for your kind words.

I don't know that SSF is a preferred method to play anymore. There have been many advances in others while it looks like SSF is everything it's ever going to be. I'm used to it and it works for my purposes, so I haven't explored too much into other emulators.

With the recent resurgence in retro gaming, I believe the best is yet to come as far as Saturn emulation.
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby knight0fdragon » Fri May 17 2019 8:06pm

legalize freedom wrote:Thanks for your kind words.

I don't know that SSF is a preferred method to play anymore. There have been many advances in others while it looks like SSF is everything it's ever going to be. I'm used to it and it works for my purposes, so I haven't explored too much into other emulators.

With the recent resurgence in retro gaming, I believe the best is yet to come as far as Saturn emulation.



Eh, we aren't seeing major improvements in a lot of non main stream systems, so I wouldn't hold my breath in much change.

There are 2 major reasons why somebody gets involved with older system development: money or nostalgia.

For something like Saturn, it is going to take a lot of money to get a near perfect emulator that is marketable. I highly doubt that the market is large enough to account for this, since many people do not even know the Saturn exists. Which leaves those with nostalgia. Their are very few people who have the technical skills to recreate the hardware, as well as have the nostalgia for it. Resurgence in retro gaming is not going to bring on this nostalgia because it is actually dependent on the nostalgia to begin with. It is a weird cycle.

Now it gets even more crazy thanks to Sega's bad decisions.

We have seen that outside of Nintendo, the new commercial retro gaming market is not doing well. The PSX flopped, the home arcade machines are not selling strongly, and most of the plug and plays outside of the Atari flashbacks are doing terrible because they are cheap inferior versions of the original experience.

This is especially true with the few Sega plug and plays.

Now thankfully, we have 2 products that may bring resurgence back into Sega retro gaming. That is the Analogue Mega SG, and the Sega classic/mini.

These two systems will determine if the final nail in the coffin needs to be placed.

From the Analogue perspective, if sales do really well, we may see an attempt to get an FPGA version of the 32X. This of course is a huge maybe and will most likely all reside on Kevtris's passion to make it. If we can get the 32X FPGA emulated, then we will be able to see the Saturn emulated better, since they both share the same SH2 chip.

From the Sega perspective, if the classic does really well, we may see a Dreamcast version. If we can get to a Dreamcast version of the mini, and that does well, then Sega may crack open their giri giri source and finish up the emulator to offer more support for the missing titles.
knight0fdragon

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 1196
Joined: Fri Nov 05 2004 5:36am
Location: Good ol(Not Really) Pennsylvania USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Fri May 17 2019 9:02pm

@legalize freedom

SSF is indeed a rather stable playing environment, yes, so it makes sense for the patches to be built around it and hardware as a target (if we are to believe the percentiles on the author's page, it's insanely close to real hardware accuracy). It's mostly the usability that bugs me (I'm sure I'm not the only one), same for Mednafen despite its accuracy.

Yabause has much better usability than SSF (especially for managing save RAM), but I've been testing some aspects and it seems the saves generated by it aren't compatible with either SSF or the SF3 save editor, so there's that problem.

Another issue is that Yabause is a hot mess regarding its many, many forks: You have mainstream Yabause that hasn't been updated in a decade, and then forks that cater to specific uses (Kronos offers graphics options, Yaiba Sanshiro targets Android, and so on).

Lastly you have Nova, a standalone emulator that shows promise; it works out of the box, but the sound emulation is awful, and I believe it won't be truly usable before 5 years' time or so.

@knight0fdragon

I agree with you fully. Even systems like the PS1, that could be considered mainsteam, haven't seem real developments regarding perfecting the hardware emulation besides a Mednafen core to it, and a lot of people still use other ones (myself included(, so the situation is compounded even further for less known systems like the Saturn.

I truly doubt the hardware could be accurately replicated (though I've seen a thread mentioning something called Pseudo Saturn here; is it merely Retroarch emulation inside a pretty shell?
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Sun May 19 2019 12:16am

Red_Shine wrote:
I truly doubt the hardware could be accurately replicated (though I've seen a thread mentioning something called Pseudo Saturn here; is it merely Retroarch emulation inside a pretty shell?


Pseudo Saturn is simply software/firmware that you flash an action replay cart with so you can play backups on an unmodded Saturn. But you either find yourself without the use of your RAM Cart slot or you do a lot of cart swapping to save, which is going to be terrible for the slot over time.
Last edited by legalize freedom on Mon May 20 2019 12:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Sun May 19 2019 5:34am

@Legalize Freedom
I see, yes, you're right, it could cause problems to the slot in the long run.

Today I ran into a quirk both Yabause and SSF share, while playing SF3 (I figured patch v20 would be a good point to finally dive in properly, so I have been).

With both Yabause and SSF, save states have been incredibly unstable in my experience. Even if they load fine, at some point the game will simply crash, with the music continuing as normal. I believe neither emulator has perfect savestate code, since I had no issues otherwise, so just one more thing for emulator users to watch out for.

Thankfully SF3 has in battle saving, which ameliorates the issue a great deal, making states mostly moot, even though the system itself is somewhat asinine in my opinion (overwriting a save by default instead of always asking).
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Mon May 20 2019 12:15pm

Red_Shine wrote:
With both Yabause and SSF, save states have been incredibly unstable in my experience. Even if they load fine, at some point the game will simply crash, with the music continuing as normal. I believe neither emulator has perfect savestate code, since I had no issues otherwise, so just one more thing for emulator users to watch out for.

Thankfully SF3 has in battle saving, which ameliorates the issue a great deal, making states mostly moot, even though the system itself is somewhat asinine in my opinion (overwriting a save by default instead of always asking).


Correct. You should never use save states with SF3 using SSF.

Overwriting may be the default (top) option, but all you have to do is move to another option before pressing the button. You always have the option to save however you like.
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Mon May 20 2019 8:46pm

Yes, but I'm guilty of not paying attention and forgetting to move the cursor haha.
I'm also rather curious about Nova regarding savestates. Will test sometime and report back. You know, for science.

Edit: Nova doesn't have savestates it seems, so it's really useful for the purposes of this test.
Also, half of the time it would crash without booting, so yeah, I'd say it's not a good way to play SF3 right now.

Edit 2: Mednaffen works but suffers from quirks:


    It doesn't like the cue files the patch generates. The trailing backslash needs to be removed from the first line: "\Shining Force 3 - Scenario 1 Patched.bin" BINARY then becomes simply "Shining Force 3 - Scenario 1 Patched.bin" BINARY

    After testing for quite a while, Mednafen is incredibly stable even with save states and in general. It also emulates the Saturn's internal memory and cartridges correctly. However, its save format for both mediums is completely incompatible with SSF, Nova or Yabause, so this should be kept in mind.
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Tue May 21 2019 12:12pm

If you are playing with Mednafen, you should just get Retroarch. I believe it features all the latest Mednafen cores.
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Tue May 21 2019 9:12pm

legalize freedom wrote:If you are playing with Mednafen, you should just get Retroarch. I believe it features all the latest Mednafen cores.


I haven't had a good experience with retroarch, the UI is too confusing for its own good IMO. I'm using Mednafen standalone plus the frontend I noted above. Works quite nicely really and it is up to date.
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Kalkano » Fri Jun 21 2019 7:07pm

I had this problem previously. There is a graphical option on Yaba Sanshiro (another fork of Yabause) that resolves the issue. I can't remember what the option is, but I thought it didn't work at first, since I changed the option and it still crashed.

The problem, is that Yaba Sanshiro needs to be closed and re-opened for any settings changes to take effect (which it doesn't seem to explain anywhere). Once I figured that out, Yaba Sanshiro ran fine with paul_met's patch option. Sorry I can't remember which option it was...
Currently Playing for the First Time: Stella Glow

Shining Force 3: Chronology (YouTube Series Here)

"Honesty has a beautiful and refreshing simplicity about it. No hidden meanings. No hidden agendas. As honesty and integrity characterize our lives there will be no need to manipulate others."
Currently Playing for the First Time: Stella Glow

Shining Force 3: Chronology (YouTube Series Here)

"Honesty has a beautiful and refreshing simplicity about it. No hidden meanings. No hidden agendas. As honesty and integrity characterize our lives there will be no need to manipulate others."
Kalkano

User avatar
Shining Commander
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed Sep 22 2004 5:25pm
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Red_Shine » Sat Aug 03 2019 12:33am

Kronos 1.70 got released as standalone. I'm not sure about the Mednafen core for it, but on the standalone, despite the many engine improvements (the spell effects look correct now) savestates are still prone to cause crashes, so I suggest sticking to Mednafen still, either in core form, or standalone.

Edit: Maybe it has to do with "Enable Multithreading". With that off, savestates haven't crashed the emulator so far.

However loading is still hugely unstable, so yeah. Mednafen is still the go to way to play without problems.
Red_Shine

User avatar
Member
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 29 2009 11:25am

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby Swalchy » Mon Aug 05 2019 4:30pm

I'm currently playing though Scenario 1 on SSF with the Paul Met's patch option, using both normal saves and save-states, and I've yet to come across a problem.

I'm also on Windows 10, build 17763.503. SSF Version is 0.012 Beta R4.
The Way To Yahuweh
Dead Sea Scroll Images
Latest Update Post


Salibu: 20/08/10 wrote:You have all been Swalched.


Damn I've been here a long f*cking time...
The Way To Yahuweh
Dead Sea Scroll Images
Latest Update Post


Salibu: 20/08/10 wrote:You have all been Swalched.


Damn I've been here a long f*cking time...
Swalchy

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 10422
Joined: Thu Sep 16 2004 5:16pm

Re: paul_met's patch option

Postby legalize freedom » Mon Aug 05 2019 6:15pm

Swalchy wrote:I'm currently playing though Scenario 1 on SSF with the Paul Met's patch option, using both normal saves and save-states, and I've yet to come across a problem.

I'm also on Windows 10, build 17763.503. SSF Version is 0.012 Beta R4.


I'm warning you. Never use save states on SSF. The problem will hide and when it arises, there's nothing you can do about it. Even if you stop using them, there can still be problems moving forward. I believe it compounds as the saves get larger, like each sync option, etc.
legalize freedom

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Apr 29 2006 4:09am
Location: Texas, USA

Next

Return to Shining Force III

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 0 guests