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Accursed Tyrin !!!

Pathetic Spell Progression

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Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Doomblade66 » Wed Sep 22 2010 1:06am

Hi all - this is meant to be a semi-humorous rant on Tyrin, one of my favorite SF-II characters - and perhaps the best Wizard in the game, due to his spell selection by the end-game.

HOWEVER...he also strains my patience to an extreme degree, in the Default Game at least, due to his pathetic....horrible....terrible....annoyingly annoying...spell progression rate ! :damnit:


Basically, this guy takes FOREVER - seemingly - to get Freeze-3....which is absurd, considering Kazin (for example) has Blaze-3 for most of the game (around Taros or slightly thereafter, most times).

In my current playthrough of the default game on Super - on Sonic's UGC for XBox...I got Tyrin at Creed's, then waited till he was Level-30 to promote (no reason to rush it for Mage-Wizard types, I generally feel - and he can use a few extra points of defense - he still gets 1-shotted by everything though ;) ).

Now...after promotion at Level-30 (meaning he got 6 Levels already from 24 to 30)....I've managed to baby him (feed him some kills, use Protect Ring a bit) ...enough to just (in the Jaro-battle before Moun) ....reach Level-6 (Promoted).

...HE STILL DOESN'T HAVE FREEZE-3 !!!!!


ELEVEN (11) LEVELS AFTER HE JOINS YOU AND HE STILL DOESN'T GET A LEVEL-3 MAGIC SPELL ??? :confused:


Grrr...sorry ....that just annoys me to no end - I had forgotten just HOW obnoxious it was/is - since I have been playing around with a modified version of SF-2 using the various Editor tools SFC's members have developed (SF-2-Edit, The Caravan)....and in there, I'd remembered to specifically increase the rate that many of the characters learn their spells).

But the default game is just ridiculous, as relates to Tyrin. There's no reason...at all...why he shouldn't have Freeze-3 by at least Zalbard ! Surely by Level-30 he should get it ....that's SIX levels after he joins you, meaning without Power Leveling(Egress stuff) - you would likely be ...at Zalbard by the time he'd hit around that level....

Also ...while I'm at it....what a pathetic assortment of spells - to start ! - that they gave him in the Default Game !!!

Blaze-2 and Freeze-2 ??? REALLY designers ? Really ? He's a Level-24 character...and he's got...(only) Freeze-2 as his "big damage spell"....oooh...scary.

Sad....really.


He should START with Blaze-3, Freeze-2...at a minimum...and possibly give him Sleep-1 as well.

Then my idealized progression would be:

Level-27 - Bolt-1
Level-30- Freeze-3
Level-33- Bolt-2
Level-35- Sleep-2 (use SF-2 Edit to make it a slightly larger range version of spell)
Level-36- Blaze-4
Level-40- Freeze-4
Level-44- Bolt-3
Level-48- Bolt-4


Something like that....much more reasonable, and sensible.

When you have a guy that dies to 1-hit from...oh, pretty much ANYTHING, on Super Mode.....to have him gimped as badly as they do in the default game (for so much of the time after you get him) - is just frustrating.


Okay...end rant. :thumbsup:
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Corsair » Wed Sep 22 2010 2:26am

It's been recommended that you go ahead and wait for him to get freeze 3 (sometimes freeze 4, depending on who is telling.) before you promote him, becuause his spell progression doesn't seem to take into account the extra 4 levels over 20 he starts with into account when determining when he learns spells post-promotion; so if you promote him right away (24) the game acts like he's on level 20.

At least that's my understanding, correct me if i'm wrong.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby superrojo » Wed Sep 22 2010 2:27am

I think your late promotion killed you on this one. Tyrin learns Freeze 3 at level 31 unpromoted, or level 11 promoted (remember no matter when you promote, as far as spell levels are concerned the game assumes you promoted at level 20).

Had you waited one more level to promote Tyrin, you'd have your Freeze 3 ^^

I do agree that his starting spells suck though. :thumbsup:
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Stordarth » Wed Sep 22 2010 11:51am

an interesting point. I may remedy this in the milestone hack during my rebalance.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Doomblade66 » Wed Sep 22 2010 1:00pm

Reaeaallly ? I didn't know that the spells worked that way in this game...I always thought (and I'm no noob to SF series or SF-2 !) - that when, in SF-2-Edit for example, it said "Spell-X Learned at Level-40" - that the game is saying "40 Character Levels" - in fact, I'm sure that's how it goes...since it means if you never promoted the character, they would learn it at Level-40 (Unpromoted) - but if you Promoted...you would learn it at level....20 ....

...wait a sec... :damnit:


I think I see my mistake, and I think it's ONLY because of the way Tyrin is set up.

By default, he gains Freeze-3 on Level-31, you said ? So had I done one more level - THEN - promoted him, he'd have gained the spell and had it all this time....

( :angry: )


....but because I promoted....the game now looks at the "Freeze-3 @ 31" info as being "Freeze-3 @ Level 11 (Promoted) , since it assumes Promotion is 20, plus 11 in this case.


The issue then, is not so much that I didn't wait long enough ...but rather, that the default game info (I think) - handicaps Tyrin by making the level Freeze-3 is learned at be "31" - EXACTLY.

Basically...because I promoted @ 30... and then BECAME "Level-1 Promoted" - right away, I never actually hit "level 31" - technically. What I think would fix the problem (May have to test this) - would be to set Tyrin to learn Freeze-3 either at 29....or 32....either should work.

Err....I think...I'm tired after 3rd shift @ work -so if this is off and obviously so, forgive me.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Magnus » Wed Sep 22 2010 6:23pm

This is how it was for me with Bowie when I promoted him at level 40 and Bolt 3 was never learned (Abuse of the Elven Village hidden area, >.>). I was like "What the heck? I'm like almost level 15 and I STILL don't have level 3?!" Then I finally realized just because I promoted Bowie so late, it killed the learning process. Although on the bright side, Bowie was unstoppable, full of brute strength and defense. EVERY devil did 1 damage (Excluding wizards).

But yeah, I tend to promote my spell casters normally, so I do not have to worry about their late promotions messing with their learning. I don't count Kazin though, since I most of the time turn him into a Sorcerer.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Space King » Thu Sep 23 2010 12:52am

It's kind of almost fair, since he learns Freeze 4 earlier than Chaz and it's a more powerful spell in a massive way than Blaze. What is +1 range worth to you? Do you add that value to the +25% damage, or do you multiply it?

If you look at Taya, her spells come in a ridiciously bad order. For the longest time I had no idea why Neptune came after Dao 2.

Always hated this game didn't store promoted-at level.

Meh.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Doomblade66 » Thu Sep 23 2010 1:56am

Well, I'm just glad I actually know about this flaw now ....

....however, I'm still thinking it has to do (partially) with Tyrin getting the spell at 31....I think the "1" factor hurts him because the game counts Level-1 Promoted as ....nothing....because you don't actually GAIN spells when you are talking to the Priest in a Church (the Promotion process...) - UNLESS you are becoming a Sorceror, and learning Dao-1....but that's a unique exception.


So because I waited till 30....just before he WOULD have gotten it at 31...THEN promoted...I "transformed" Tyrin into Level-1 Promoted.

Because you cannot learn a spell @ Level-1 (promoted) - excepting Dao (see above) - the game looks at the "NEXT" possible opportunity to consider a "Level-31" Tyrin...and it does that at Level-11 Promoted (20 Levels, which is what it counts a Promotion as being + 11 more = 31).


So I think the problem could be solved by listing his Freeze-3 learning as happening at an Even Number - like 2 (Level-32) ...or 28. Heck, even 29 would be okay, I think.

You get him @ Level-24.... - if you promoted him then....Freeze-3 should be learned about 7-levels later, I think....@ Level 8 Promoted ??

Is that the default way / time he normally will get it if you immediately promote him after picking him up at Creed's ?
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Space King » Thu Sep 23 2010 2:06am

He learns it at Wizard level 11 or Mage level 31. Full stop.

If a character was set to learn a spell at level 21 and they promoted at 20, I am pretty sure in that case they'd be screwed out of it, full stop.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Obob » Thu Sep 23 2010 3:00am

You should probably promote Tyrin at 24, 38 (freeze 4), or 40 if you're going for WIZ. 31 also makes some sense, but then it would be a LONG wait until freeze 4.

I don't believe any characters are set to learn spells at 21 in the unmodified game.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Rohde Is Underrated » Thu Sep 23 2010 3:47pm

I did some testing on this a few weeks back, characters do not learn spells that are lv 21 when they are promoted they won't even learn it if you add the spell to their promoted list for a lv 1 spell. They also can't learn more than 1 spell on a level up, if for whatever reason anyone wanted to try doing that.

As for the promotion level I would just say promote at 24 you only lose 3 levels. If you are going to egress and feed him kills you can make that up very fast it's only ~6 (49exp)kills worth of exp. If you are doing a no egress game I would still say go for promo at 24 because gaining exp after level 30 without egressing or redoing the reoccurring battles seems like a huge pain in the ass to me.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby superrojo » Thu Sep 23 2010 10:16pm

The thing to remember. No matter when you promote, the game always assumes you promoted at level 20. Why do you think you get such amazing xp after you promote late?
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Sinful Force » Fri Sep 24 2010 12:28am

Tyrin sucked when I played with him. I was pissed off that I was stuck with him instead of any of the other four choices.

Why does he suck for me? Because I don't really prefer powerleveling. late promoting, and moderate to serious babysitting. Thus Tyrin sucks in my case.


I don't mind that he works out for others, but definately not for me... Course this doesn't mean I'll never pick him again, as I like to mix things up all the time... Plus add handicaps. >_>
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Doomblade66 » Fri Sep 24 2010 2:40am

One of the bigger reasons he sucks is the fact they give him such crappy spells for what he is when he joins....a Level-24 Mage !

Blaze-2 and Freeze-2 ? really ?

As others said...he's forced to go a long way till a range-3 (or even Level-3) spell is learned....

Given that Kazin has Blaze-3 and Desoul-1 by that point...plus a few other utility spells, Tyrin should have something like:

Blaze-3
Freeze-2
Sleep-1

Upon join-up. He can then learn Bolt-1 at his usual spot....Freeze-3...and eventually Bolt-2 // Freeze-4, without such a long (seemingly) time till a Level-3 spell, as is the case in a normal runthrough.

----------------------
----------------------

Also - earlier Space King said
"He learns it (Freeze-3) at Level-11 Wizard or Level-31 Mage (Full Stop)".

It seems the King is suggesting that there is no other formula or rhyme/reason to it....so why would Obob (and a few others) suggestion to promote him right away at 24-Mage be a good idea ?

The reason I am confused...is it means he would have to gain 10-Levels !!! - to get Freeze-3....if you ONLY will learn it at Level-11 Wizard (if you didn't wait till 31-Mage).

It seems the smarter idea, with Tyrin...would be to wait till 31...get Freeze-3...then promote (only-7 levels of waiting, from Mage-24....no ?).

OR...as Obob cautioned...if you did that, then you'd have to wait till Level-18 Wizard to get Freeze-4.... which means +17 Levels after promoting ! (uRGH !)

So...maybe Tyrin is an exception that is best served by waiting till Level-38 Mage - getting Freeze-4...then promoting...in almost every game ?

In that case, you are only needing +14 Levels - TOTAL from the time you get him - for Freeze-4, and you get his Freeze-3 only 7-levels afterwards, instead of 11 if you promoted immediately at 24 ?

* Also - since Wizards / Mages suck at normal stats ANYWAYS - if you do this with him, you aren't going to "wreck your game" in terms of Challenge....I can heartily attest that Super-Difficulty monsters still destroy my mages/wizards with ease, even after promotion @ Level-30 for both of them, this time around. ;)
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby BigNailCow » Fri Sep 24 2010 3:58am

You may want to look at Frayja's progression too. I'm pretty sure he goes at least 15 levels just knowing Heal 2 and Detox 2.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Kcid » Fri Sep 24 2010 6:44am

IIRC Frayja learns Aura 1 relatively quickly (after just one or two levels maybe?)

You have to remember that it gets hard to gain exp at a higher level unpromoted. It may take less kills/hits to get 10 levels promoted than it would take to get 7 levels unpromoted (starting at 24). I would think promoting him ASAP would yield freeze 4 a bit quicker than not promoting at all.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Doomblade66 » Fri Sep 24 2010 2:47pm

Strange....my experience is mostly the opposite - ie when you promote guys - they tend to drop very quickly to getting 13-20 exp for killing many monsters ....whereas leaving them unpromoted, they seem to (more often) get 40+ exp for kills.... thus, it was a lot easier getting Kazin from Level-20 (Mage) to Level-30 (Mage), then it was to get Slade from Level-5 Promoted to Level-15 Promoted (for the most part - Slade is so good, it's hard NOT to do well with him, but you get my point).

Basically...after Promotion, you seem to run up against a wall where only CERTAIN monsters in each battle (like the Dark Snipers - what's up with that ?) - can give high exp. for killing them...but the other ones seem quite poor for getting exp. off of.

------------------

Back to the issue of Tyrin and promoting...does anyone agree that my concept of just waiting till he's Level-38 (only 14-levels needed) to promote make sense ? That way he guarantees he has Freeze-4 right away...and arguably will be getting Freeze-4 sooner than he ever would have before, even if it doesn't seem like that, at first glance.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Solby » Fri Sep 24 2010 3:12pm

Doomblade66 @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:47 am) wrote: thus, it was a lot easier getting Kazin from Level-20 (Mage) to Level-30 (Mage), then it was to get Slade from Level-5 Promoted to Level-15 Promoted

That's likely because the comparison isn't equal. You would need to compare Kazin 25 (Mage) to Kazin 35 (Mage) to Slades 5-15. There shouldn't be any difference at all since the levels are equivalent.

On the other note, yes; I fully agree it is best to leave Tyrin unpromoted to learn Freeze 4 (and every other spell) faster.


Kcid: Tyrin will gain the same exp. from 24 to 38U as he will from 4 to 18P. The only difference is that if he's promoted he needs to gain an extra 3 levels. In other words: it's no more difficult to go from level 32 unpromoted to level 33 unpromoted than it is to go from level 12 promoted to 13 unpromoted (other than having crappy stats and weapons).
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Arc_the_Lad » Fri Sep 24 2010 4:31pm

I've...never had a problem with Tyrin, he always got by with what he had, and ended up being one of the best.

I always choose him at Creed's.
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Re: Accursed Tyrin !!!

Postby Hungry » Fri Sep 24 2010 8:21pm

OR you could just promote him to SORC since he has the best progression of all the sorcerers. Then he won't fall behind at all. ;)
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