The Shining Universe and Landstalker

[Martin III]

First of all, let me say that I am well aware that Camelot has stated that there is no connection whatsoever between the Shining universe and the so-called Stalker series, so this is all fun speculation. (Also, for anyone who doesn't know, none of the games affiliated with the "Stalker" series - Landstalker, Ladystalker, Dark Savior, and Climax Landers/Timestalkers - are set in a shared universe, or even in vaguely similar universes.)

I've just finished the game Timestalkers(Climax Landers in Japan), which features both Pyra from SitD and Nigel from Landstalker as playable characters. Obviously I'm not unique on these boards as having done so, but no one else seems to have mentioned this little tidbit, so:

The five playable characters of Timestalkers are supposedly drawn from five separate universes. However, when Pyra bids her farewell to Nigel, the script gives more than a hint that Landstalker is set in the Shining universe. Pyra and Nigel say something along the lines of "At least the two of us are going back to the same universe, even if it's not the same era." After Pyra lands back in Thornwood, she spies someone who looks almost exactly like Nigel, presumably one of his ancestors or descendants.

Has anyone else who's played Timestalkers stumbled upon the cutscene showing how Pyra and Nigel know that they're from the same world?

And does anyone have any thoughts on when and where in the Shining universe Landstalker is (at least in the minds of Climax) taking place? I've only played about 25 minutes worth of Landstalker thus far, so I can't come up with much of anything there...

[Evil Gately]

Phew, third time this year this topic's come up. Here's the last time we were talking about the "connection" between Landstalker and Shining Force.

So if Max was originally intended to be Nigel, then Shining Rogue would (presumably) be set between Shining Force and Shining Force CD, so we could reasonably assume that Landstalker takes place at that time instead. Therefore, the events of Shining Force: Final Conflict would have had to have passed, too, and Mephisto should have had time to grow into Melvyl/Dark Sol. Therefore, assuming Devil children age at the same rate that humans do, judging by Melvyl's appearance in Shining in the Darkness, we'd be looking at about 20 or so years after Final Conflict for Pyra.

If all my assumptions hold, I'd say there's about a 25-30 year gap between Nigel and Pyra, and as there's never been much to tell us how Elves age in the Shining or Stalker universes, then it's a fair bet that the person in question could actually be Nigel.

[Cullsoft]

If all my assumptions hold, I'd say there's about a 25-30 year gap between Nigel and Pyra, and as there's never been much to tell us how Elves age in the Shining or Stalker universes, then it's a fair bet that the person in question could actually be Nigel.

Actually, there is - according to one guide book that lists more in-depth character details for a few of the SHF1 characters, Tao is 48, Hans is 126, Diane is 115, and Mishaela (who I gather is a "Dark" Elf) is 198. So their ages kinda fit in with the concept of Elves having very hefty longevity.

[TheUnknownMarine]

Actually, there is - according to one guide book that lists more in-depth character details for a few of the SHF1 characters, Tao is 48, Hans is 126, Diane is 115, and Mishaela (who I gather is a "Dark" Elf) is 198. So their ages kinda fit in with the concept of Elves having very hefty longevity.

That fits in well with my estimation that SF elves have comparatively shortly lifespans than their counterparts in other worlds... It seems I was just a little off with my "Twice as long as a human" bit. Should've been about three times as long then.

Culley, I must know more about this book and any information you have on it.

[Martin III]

So if Max was originally intended to be Nigel, then Shining Rogue would (presumably) be set between Shining Force and Shining Force CD, so we could reasonably assume that Landstalker takes place at that time instead. Therefore, the events of Shining Force: Final Conflict would have had to have passed, too, and Mephisto should have had time to grow into Melvyl/Dark Sol. Therefore, assuming Devil children age at the same rate that humans do, judging by Melvyl's appearance in Shining in the Darkness, we'd be looking at about 20 or so years after Final Conflict for Pyra.

If all my assumptions hold, I'd say there's about a 25-30 year gap between Nigel and Pyra, and as there's never been much to tell us how Elves age in the Shining or Stalker universes, then it's a fair bet that the person in question could actually be Nigel.

The problems there are (1)why would Pyra and Nigel think they were from different eras if they weren't, and (2)why would Pyra so easily shrug off the appearance of pseudo-Nigel unless she noticed something that made her certain that it wasn't him?

I think there's a loophole around the fact that Landstalker's setting was originally designed as being shortly after Shining Force I. Namely, the tendency for pre-industrialized societies to remain basically the same over long periods of time. We don't know that this tendency applies to the Shining universe, but it could. This means that Climax could freely place Landstalker anywhere in the Shining timeline within a window of three or four hundred years, and still not contradict themselves.

So yeah, Landstalker probably couldn't have taken place as far back as before Dark Dragon's original defeat, or as far ahead as Shining the Holy Ark, but it's still quite possible that Nigel and Pyra's lifelines never overlap, even with elven longevity.

Speaking of which, thanks for that info Culley, though I must admit I'm a bit bummed to hear that the Shining elves follow the Tolkein model in that respect. Exceptional longevity in a species complicates things quite a bit, and unless I've missed something, the series has never addressed that at all. Oh well; at least I can be thankful that there are no elves in Cypress.

[Light Hope]

Thats cool to know. I always thought they were connected.

[TheUnknownMarine]

The problems there are (1)why would Pyra and Nigel think they were from different eras if they weren't, and (2)why would Pyra so easily shrug off the appearance of pseudo-Nigel unless she noticed something that made her certain that it wasn't him?

I think there's a loophole around the fact that Landstalker's setting was originally designed as being shortly after Shining Force I. Namely, the tendency for pre-industrialized societies to remain basically the same over long periods of time. We don't know that this tendency applies to the Shining universe, but it could. This means that Climax could freely place Landstalker anywhere in the Shining timeline within a window of three or four hundred years, and still not contradict themselves.

So yeah, Landstalker probably couldn't have taken place as far back as before Dark Dragon's original defeat, or as far ahead as Shining the Holy Ark, but it's still quite possible that Nigel and Pyra's lifelines never overlap, even with elven longevity.

Speaking of which, thanks for that info Culley, though I must admit I'm a bit bummed to hear that the Shining elves follow the Tolkein model in that respect. Exceptional longevity in a species complicates things quite a bit, and unless I've missed something, the series has never addressed that at all. Oh well; at least I can be thankful that there are no elves in Cypress.

It doesn't mess things up that badly. As I said, the Shining elves' longevity appears to be far behind that of the other universe elves, a mere 2-300 years at best.

Of course, they have the benefit of not showing signs of age once they hit physical maturity, as SF3 has stated.

Being a devil, Mishaela could in fact be capable of living far longer than actual elves.

[Eric]

What is the statute of limitations on Shining Force history? Is it unethical of me to revive a 7 year old topic to point out one major piece of evidence that no one has mentioned yet?

In the game Time Stalkers, if you explore a lot and talk, you will see Nigel and Pyra talking to eachother as NPCs. Nigel informs her that her kingdom was destroyed hundreds of years ago in his world. Pyra is shocked of course. Now, I couldn't remember if he said it was Thornwood (Shining in the Darkness) or a kingdom of elves. Some clarification would be nice, but it was definitely a direct clue that Landstalker takes place at least hundreds of years after Shining in the Darkness in the same universe.

[Caedmonball19]

Do you remember where in the game that conversation takes place? And no, 8 years is the limit on necroposting

[Eric]

Yes, the conversation happens when you are neither of those 2 characters (maybe I was Sword). Then its right in front of the clock tower on the floor with Nigels Platform. It is not considered a cutscene, they are just both talking to eachother.

[Caedmonball19]

This guy is doing a current playthrough and last video ended after he met Pyra. so is this close to where you saw it. The end of the video shows Pyra running around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsafVCVgXy4

[Eric]

At the end of that video he unlocks Pyra.

In order to see the scene I am talking about you have to not be playing as either of them. And the location it will happen is at is around 21:17 in the video. It doesn't happen all the time and its not really a cutscene, it is more of a random spawn for Nigel and Pyra to be there talking to eachother. I assume it can happen anytime after Pyra joins. But to be safe, it probably requires talking to npc's often and unlocking more of the main story. I am not 100% sure, but I think it can spawn post-game.

[Omega Entity]

Of course, there's nothing saying that Timestalkers isn't simply a fanciful look at alternate timelines, all mashed together in that one space. There's always the possibility her kingdom was destroyed in -his- timeline but not necessarily hers, if this is the case.

Either way, I wouldn't consider the events of Timestalkers to be canon by any stretch. After all, even if Landstalker was initially intended as part of the Shining world, in the end it wasn't.

[Geoffrey Duke]

Of course, there's nothing saying that Timestalkers isn't simply a fanciful look at alternate timelines, all mashed together in that one space. There's always the possibility her kingdom was destroyed in -his- timeline but not necessarily hers, if this is the case.

Either way, I wouldn't consider the events of Timestalkers to be canon by any stretch. After all, even if Landstalker was initially intended as part of the Shining world, in the end it wasn't.

That's not really fair though since Climax helped create SITD and SF1. Technically Pyra is their character as well.

It's a rare situation. I don't regard Timestalkers as cannon in the Shining universe but it's a nice what if scenario. It's an alternative timeline at best.

I was glad to see that Nigel and Friday were still together.

[Omega Entity]

I'm aware of that, But as Martin said earlier, it's outright been stated by the other half of the developers that none of it is canon. So really, this all is a bunch of 'what-if' mental masturbation, no matter how you look at it, or how fair it may or may not be.

[Caedmonball19]

Did you really just say mental masturbation?

[Stordarth]

Hey, she could have said 'fan-wank', and then we'd all be shocked.

[Omega Entity]

Theoretical choking the chicken, hypothetical handjob, intellectual muffin' buffin'. Take your pick.

[Geoffrey Duke]

It's a shame that Timestalkers sucked. Pyra was beautiful. The art was good. The music was immersive. The story was original. The graphics weren't bad, but the gameplay was born in the fires of hell.

I think Climax were high when they made Timestalkers. Or perhaps the type of gameplay that we see in Timestalkers was popular in Japan at the time.

It's a shame that Garian from Dark Savior didn't show up in the story as well. I guess he ended up trapped in a timeloop on Jailor's Island forever.


I wonder if Camelot originally planned for SITD to be set after the original Shining Force or if they decided to retcon that later.

What disturbs me is that Sega could potentially re-use all of these characters in the future since they own the rights to the series.

[the Landstalker]

I'm not really adding much more to the info, but when Pyra see's what she thinks is Nigel, I thought it looked strangely like Alundra.

Alundra was produced by a bunch of guys that left climax.

ah TimeStalkers, I sank so much time into that game....