All Things Shining: New Life to the site?

[Geoffrey Duke]

MMORPGs are the future. You can't fight it. Normal RPGs won't be able to compete with them IMO.

Edit: I think the old games will always have a cult following though. I'm still impressed with the art in SFIII.

[Rune]

Everybody else on this forum looks at the other Shining games as non-Shining games, even the GBA remake of the first Shining Force game.

No, you don't speak for everyone else here. That statement is just false.

And isn't camelot just spending their time on golf and tennis games now?

[Lord Oddeye sama]

Everybody else on this forum looks at the other Shining games as non-Shining games, even the GBA remake of the first Shining Force game.

No, you don't speak for everyone else here. That statement is just false.

And isn't camelot just spending their time on golf and tennis games now?

Correct on all accounts. Also Golden Sun once in a decade.

[Omega Entity]

Well yeah, of course. But I don't have to buy that or like it. Even Moogie agrees with this with that latest campaign she started, which begged for "Camelot" to make another Shining game, not Sega. Cause nobody cares about what Sega does with that name. Just look at the numbers at this site. It's all about Camelot. Camelot. Camelot. Long live Camelot! ... And screw Sega. Hey, hearing "Screw Sega" all the time isn't nothing new either these days. Especially here. So see what I mean? I mean for real, "Screw Sega." Loved them before, still do and live in la la land were I re-live those glory Sega days with glories games they released or published in the before days. But since the days they abandoned the Sega Saturn, they started to change way too much for the worse.

That campaign went to Sega, too - they also received a package. But the campaign itself was handled tactlessly, both in timing and in name. 'SOS' implies that the series needs help, when the newer entries sell relatively well in Japan; they wouldn't keep making them if they didn't. The Japanese are a very proud people. To imply that something that they're doing that has success is in need of help is insulting.

The packages also when out when the country was in the midst of a horrendous national disaster, one that claimed the lives of over 18,000 people and caused the meltdown of a nuclear reactor. But no, sending the packages out to coincide with the series anniversary was more important than showing sensitivity to the situation.

So, not only did she sent over something for a campaign whose name was insulting to the work that they've been doing, she did so at a time when it was ridiculously insensitive to do so. No wonder the Japanese have such an unfavorable outlook on Western fans. The Western fans have shown themselves to suffer from a terrible sense (and insulting level) of entitlement. No wonder Sega hasn't localized any more titles after Neo and Wind.

[Kalkano]

Well yeah, of course. But I don't have to buy that or like it. Even Moogie agrees with this with that latest campaign she started, which begged for "Camelot" to make another Shining game, not Sega. Cause nobody cares about what Sega does with that name. Just look at the numbers at this site. It's all about Camelot. Camelot. Camelot. Long live Camelot! ... And screw Sega. Hey, hearing "Screw Sega" all the time isn't nothing new either these days. Especially here. So see what I mean? I mean for real, "Screw Sega." Loved them before, still do and live in la la land were I re-live those glory Sega days with glories games they released or published in the before days. But since the days they abandoned the Sega Saturn, they started to change way too much for the worse.

That campaign went to Sega, too - they also received a package. But the campaign itself was handled tactlessly, both in timing and in name. 'SOS' implies that the series needs help, when the newer entries sell relatively well in Japan; they wouldn't keep making them if they didn't. The Japanese are a very proud people. To imply that something that they're doing that has success is in need of help is insulting.

The packages also when out when the country was in the midst of a horrendous national disaster, one that claimed the lives of over 18,000 people and caused the meltdown of a nuclear reactor. But no, sending the packages out to coincide with the series anniversary was more important than showing sensitivity to the situation.

So, not only did she sent over something for a campaign whose name was insulting to the work that they've been doing, she did so at a time when it was ridiculously insensitive to do so. No wonder the Japanese have such an unfavorable outlook on Western fans. The Western fans have shown themselves to suffer from a terrible sense (and insulting level) of entitlement. No wonder Sega hasn't localized any more titles after Neo and Wind.

I think you're being a little harsh. The fact that the SOS name was insulting was unintentional. And, Moogie sending it, despite the disaster, was not insensitive. It was supposed to be a "package of love" (no, not THAT kind) for them. And, she even mentioned the disaster in the cover letter, and gave her sympathy.

[Omega Entity]

Intentional or not, it was still insulting. Combined with the written sympathy, it made it all a bit backhanded. "Hey, we know that things are really rough for you and we're really sorry about that, but here's a campaign with an insulting title and some compliments with the intention to convince you to indulge in our selfish desires for you to make another game for us!".

[Geoffrey Duke]

At least we still have the original games. I'd love to see another true 3D Shining Force game but it's not financially viable sadly. Not at the moment anyway. We might see another Blade/Ark style game with more characters for a home console one day. Even that would be better than nothing. The problem is even if the market conditions were perfect, Sega would still invest their resources in something more popular.

Making SF Neo an action/RPG was also insulting.

[Lord Oddeye sama]

Put like this... I guess Moogie didn't think that one through.

[Kalkano]

I'd love to see another true 3D Shining Force game but it's not financially viable sadly.

I disagree. I think they'd make a decent profit from a 3D Shining Force on consoles. Genres other than action and FPS didn't just stop being popular. Companies just stopped making quality games in those genres. It doesn't need to be AAA. A mid-tier SRPG can still make money. Tears to Tiara 2 is a step in the right direction; but I think a little more production value will be necessary to pull in decent sales.

I know the immediate counter-argument will be that the production value necessary for decent sales is just too expensive. I just disagree. I know I don't have the facts. I just find it VERY hard to believe that mid-tier SRPGs can't pull a profit. I think it's more likely that these companies just think they can make a bigger profit from other genres; but due to oversaturation, that's not really true.

[Righteous Force]

MMORPGs are the future. You can't fight it. Normal RPGs won't be able to compete with them IMO.

Edit: I think the old games will always have a cult following though. I'm still impressed with the art in SFIII.

Yeah well I hate what other think the future is and will fight it too. XD Plus I want things that last, instead of fade away like fads.

And yes, I too still think SFIII looks so freaking amazing even today. Like this game can never age graphically. And why not, with clean highly detailed polygon textures showing no signs of the terrible blurry pixelization & polygon warping madness that plagued all PS1 titles. Now that was a feat back then. And no loading to boot too!! I still think to this day that it's the best looking 32-Bit title out there and the one that really shows what the Saturn was capable of. Too bad so many have yet to play this game still, mostly because it was on the unpopular Sega Saturn... and wow, to think Camelot was to freaking good back then and could match other AAA titles out there in the graphics department on current gen consoles. Even with the minimum budget the jerks at Sega gave them... they also say Scenario 3 was rushed, but outside of just those few unfinished character picture avatars, it shows zero signs of a rushed product. Unlike say, "all other" Saturn releases of 1998. XD

Everybody else on this forum looks at the other Shining games as non-Shining games, even the GBA remake of the first Shining Force game.

No, you don't speak for everyone else here. That statement is just false.

And isn't camelot just spending their time on golf and tennis games now?

The gist of what I assume everyone else thinks on this matter still seems true enough to me.

And well, yeah. Camelot isn't big enough to be always making big budget RPGs. And the biggest they could manage was a regular DS RPG, which they also had to wait until they had a big enough team to start tacking that project on to begin with. So you can't blame them just because of how expensive game development is nowadays in this one flop and your out days. So they just play it safe and with budget titles to stay afloat. Look at Camelot Mario Golf for the GBA. Once it moved to the more expensive to develop for Wii, out went the RPG elements. So don't expect much from Camelot these day. And don't blame them. Blame the times.

That campaign went to Sega, too - they also received a package.

Just because they have the copyright to the title. Just because they have the copyright to the title... echo... echo... echo... ... sorry, I'm bored.., can I play Dark Souls now? ... Why, let's read just a bit more .... (PS. This is not meant as an offense to anyone either)

The Western fans have shown themselves to suffer from a terrible sense (and insulting level) of entitlement. No wonder Sega hasn't localized any more titles after Neo and Wind.

Yeah, we Westerners suck, alright. And I say this seriously. ... Arrggghh!!! Why couldn't I have been born in Japan!!! I want to make fun of Westerners with the rest of them on radio talk show interviews and still be able to play Arcade shooters in one of the many still living Arcade centers, while again laughing at silly Westerners for not being able to do so too. Plus... enjoy many more RPGs that are only in the Japanese language. ... But no, I'm a stinking ignorant, insensitive Westerner. With all these flaws because I can't have it good too. XD

Put like this... I guess Moogie didn't think that one through.

Ditto. As in, obviously she didn't intend it this way.

Companies just stopped making quality games in those genres. It doesn't need to be AAA. A mid-tier SRPG can still make money. Tears to Tiara 2 is a step in the right direction; but I think a little more production value will be necessary to pull in decent sales.

Yeah well companies aren't making quality games anymore because free creative feedom is pushed aside for market research. Only companies that are big enough can afford to put market research aside for pure creative freedom every now and then, like S*ny & the Demon Souls instance (lol, From Software dev team kept waiting for S*ny to reply with "change this" throughout the dev cycle, but to their surprise that never happened so they were very lucky to make the game they wanted from the very start). So better get used to all these crappy games. Cause this situation is only getting worse with the budget of games getting higher & higher... rising game budget is also why system exclusives are getting more rare too.

[Geoffrey Duke]

I'd love to see another true 3D Shining Force game but it's not financially viable sadly.

I disagree. I think they'd make a decent profit from a 3D Shining Force on consoles. Genres other than action and FPS didn't just stop being popular. Companies just stopped making quality games in those genres. It doesn't need to be AAA. A mid-tier SRPG can still make money. Tears to Tiara 2 is a step in the right direction; but I think a little more production value will be necessary to pull in decent sales.

I know the immediate counter-argument will be that the production value necessary for decent sales is just too expensive. I just disagree. I know I don't have the facts. I just find it VERY hard to believe that mid-tier SRPGs can't pull a profit. I think it's more likely that these companies just think they can make a bigger profit from other genres; but due to oversaturation, that's not really true.

It's from their point of view. The money itself can be invested better. I hate it, but it is what it is.

The best thing we can do is support something else. It's possible that Sega might make another quality Shining SRPG but it probably wouldn't be casual-friendly enough, and certainly not popular enough to justify a big console budget. The best we can hope for is another Blade/Ark style game with a shallow story on a portable console.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Lord Oddeye sama]

Everybody else on this forum looks at the other Shining games as non-Shining games, even the GBA remake of the first Shining Force game.

No, you don't speak for everyone else here. That statement is just false.

And isn't camelot just spending their time on golf and tennis games now?

The gist of what I assume everyone else thinks on this matter still seems true enough to me.

I don't know about Soul 1 and beyond, but I think most people here will agree that RotDD is still a Shining Force game by design. I personally find it inferior to the original in too many ways to enjoy it, but the style's right there under all the changes. Sooo still wrong.

[Omega Entity]

Indeed, no one argues that RotDD isn't part of the series, just as no one argues that the other newer games aren't part of the series despite the gameplay differences. They just don't take any of it as solid canon. Big difference.

I also think that Moogie's heart was in the right place, it's just that there should have been more sensitivity to cultural differences, as well as timing.

[Righteous Force]

It's possible that Sega might make another quality Shining SRPG but it probably wouldn't be casual-friendly enough

This is the one thing I disagree with. Shining Force 1-3 by Camelot is the most casual friendly SRPG by far from what I've played. It's basically simple yet deep. The perfect game formula. All other SRPG bog things down with way too many stats, number, spells, etc (thus makes it even way harder to properly balance difficulty wise) and a very shitty pacing/flow as the main Shining Force director put it in an interview once while talking about the FE series.

don't know about Soul 1 and beyond, but I think most people here will agree that RotDD is still a Shining Force game by design. I personally find it inferior to the original in too many ways to enjoy it, but the style's right there under all the changes. Sooo still wrong.

Nah, I think that game totally misses the point of what a Shining Force game is. It's more like a The Forbidden Series Tactics game to me then a Shining Force game. I tried to play this game, but I just can't (made it as far as the circus tent battle). It's way too different. So I'm just going to leave this game to be never touched again. So if Sega can't handle a simple remake, then what hopes do I have for anyone else but Camelot continuing this series? ... And I really can't understand it. The formula for this series is so basic and smart. It's really screw up full proof. Yet that Sega team behind that game totally screwed it up alright.

[Omega Entity]

Seriously? The game has almost the exact same gameplay, town and battle-wise, save for the double button press thing, the bonus reqs at the start of the battle, and the battle boss stated from the getgo rather than figuring it ut the hard way. FFT is completely different, with differnet mechanics. I don't see how you can even compare the two. I'd enumerate the differences, but I don't have time to go through the myriad list. Though I might have to to prove my point, since you can't seem to differentiate one game fromt he other.

It's the story that people had the most issue with, not the gameplay. Also, Climax produced the game under Sega's banner, the same studio name Camelot worked with on Shining Force. Wrong yet again.

Seriously, are you smoking crack?

[Rune]

The gist of what I assume everyone else thinks on this matter still seems true enough to me.

Yes, by definition it would.

[Omega Entity]

You know what they say about assumptions, SF. They make an ass of u and... well, just you, really.

[Lord Oddeye sama]

don't know about Soul 1 and beyond, but I think most people here will agree that RotDD is still a Shining Force game by design. I personally find it inferior to the original in too many ways to enjoy it, but the style's right there under all the changes. Sooo still wrong.

Nah, I think that game totally misses the point of what a Shining Force game is. It's more like a The Forbidden Series Tactics game to me then a Shining Force game. I tried to play this game, but I just can't (made it as far as the circus tent battle). It's way too different. So I'm just going to leave this game to be never touched again. So if Sega can't handle a simple remake, then what hopes do I have for anyone else but Camelot continuing this series? ... And I really can't understand it. The formula for this series is so basic and smart. It's really screw up full proof. Yet that Sega team behind that game totally screwed it up alright.

Well I'd still rather replay RotDD than try to get into FFT. They're indeed completely different when it comes to battle mechanics. RotDD fixed the AI but I still wish I was playing the original every time I try to replay it.

[Righteous Force]

Seriously? The game has almost the exact same gameplay, town and battle-wise, save for the double button press thing, the bonus reqs at the start of the battle, and the battle boss stated from the getgo rather than figuring it ut the hard way. FFT is completely different, with differnet mechanics. I don't see how you can even compare the two. I'd enumerate the differences, but I don't have time to go through the myriad list. Though I might have to to prove my point, since you can't seem to differentiate one game fromt he other.

It's the story that people had the most issue with, not the gameplay. Also, Climax produced the game under Sega's banner, the same studio name Camelot worked with on Shining Force. Wrong yet again.

Seriously, are you smoking crack?

There's no way I can explain this one or just can't be bothered too. But take it more loosely for starters instead of so direct. For me it's the gameplay changes that drive me nuts about that game first and foremost. That dev team totally missed the point of what Camelot set up.

And even if it is Climax, there's no guarantee that enough of any key member from the Camelot days are still around that company or were working on that project at that time. You should know this. The only one I've heard of is that one artist (which was shocking when I found out, cause SF1 & SitD had some of the best art ever, and RotDD has some of the shittiest). And I doubt he had any say on the gameplay changes.

And from what I seen of FEDA, those guys too totally didn't understand the great groundwork Camelot set up with Shining Force. In fact, nobody does from all the SRPGs I've tried so far. It's really quite a shame. Cause Camelot got things so right on so many freaking levels.


As a side note, it was the Shining series and comparing them to other games that got me to look at games from the design & difficulty balance perspective. Thee biggest eye openers to ever happen to me in my gaming life. One of the other reasons I'm such a big fan of Camelot. They just understand gaming so well on so many things that should be so obvious to everyone but is not.

[Lord Oddeye sama]

And from what I seen of FEDA, those guys too totally didn't understand the great groundwork Camelot set up with Shining Force. In fact, nobody does from all the SRPGs I've tried so far. It's really quite a shame. Cause Camelot got things so right on so many freaking levels.

Gotta have to seriously disagree there.

Gameplay-wise, Feda expands beyond the boundaries of that groundwork by giving the players objectives to fulfill that aren't necessarily "kill everything" (lawful route, nice difficulty curve) while still leaving them that option with surprising ease (chaotic route, nice stress relief). That's the beauty of its design and an evolution I would've actually welcomed in the Shining series' formula (RotDD just doesn't fit the bill with its objective/reward thingy). For the rest, look at the menus, movement mechanics, battle animations and what have you. All very familiar.

The atmosphere still has most of the elements prevalent in the series (band of people forming through travel toward a common goal, several races, just the right mix of magic and technology, the list goes on) and the music fits just fine. It also helps that the art's reminiscent of SF1.

Overall that game has taken a slightly different approach to Camelot's own brand of SRPGs but it still falls within what I'd consider a Shining Force game.