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Guardiana

Why threaten it?

Also incorporating Shining Force Gaiden 1 & Shining Force Gaiden 2 (aka Sword of Hajya).

Guardiana

Postby Lucifer » Wed Jul 08 2015 2:07am

What could Woldol gain from attacking Guardiana? The kingdom of Guardiana is a long journey from Cypress, and Woldol already had a strong grasp on Cypress and the surrounding islands. Woldol's schemes (and the rest of Iom's for that matter) could have gone completely under Guardiana's (and therefore the Shining Force's) radar. Even if word of Cypress's turmoil were to eventually reach Guardiana, Lowe shows great disdain towards the people of Cypress and Guardiana would therefore be unlikely to aid them in their resistance.
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Lowe:
What!? What do they want with us? Your Majesty, they are barbarians. They bring only trouble!


Based on Lowe's comment, I would guess that Queen Anri knows little to nothing about Cypress, which further proves my point.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Cullsoft » Wed Jul 08 2015 6:23am

Perhaps Woldol had heard of the Shining Force's exploits in Rune to defeat Darksol and Dark Dragon, and saw them as a potential threat to his plans if word did reach them of his plans, so he decided to take out one of their remaining figureheads (i.e. Anri) as potential leverage.

Or maybe he was just after some hot mature silver-haired ice mage totty. Who knows.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Lucifer » Wed Jul 08 2015 7:27am

I wouldn't doubt that Woldol had heard of the Shining Force's war against Runefaust/Darksol/Dark Dragon (Whichever version{s} the bards tell), there were even comments from dying foes in Book 1 of how the legends of the Shining Force's power were true. My point was that the only thing he could possibly hope to accomplish by poisoning Guardiana's Monarch and blackmailing the kingdom would be earning himself the wrath of the Shining Force, and I was curious as to why he would do something so utterly idiotic. Guardiana no doubt would've left Cypress to sort itself out for 2 reasons: 1) Guardiana viewed the people of Cypress as nothing more than barbarians. 2) Queen Anri would have viewed it as nothing more than a civil war due to the kingdoms tyrannical figurehead King Edmond the Reluctant.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby DomingoRules! » Wed Jul 08 2015 6:26pm

Perhaps he simply wanted to prove that he could succeed where Runefaust failed just for the sake of gloating.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Martin III » Fri Jul 10 2015 4:47am

Woldol's plans, I am fairly certain, went well beyond securing Cypress and the near area; he wanted to conquer all that he could.

Guardiana would have been an obvious choice for conquest, since the trusting nature of Guardianans in general and of Queen Anri in particular made them an easy target. Guardiana's war record seems weak as well; the game seems to suggest that they've been at peace with their neighbors since getting trampled into the dirt by Runefaust 20 years before. Woldol would have seen them as easy pickings, and indeed he was able to get them on their knees with little trouble.

You seem to be reading Lowe's "barbarians" comment at face value, but I've always interpreted it as an insult, since Cypress is clearly just as civilized as Guardiana. Lowe's remark seems to suggest that Cypress had successfully pulled one over on Guardiana before, presumably under Woldol, but also quite possibly under Nick's father. That would have naturally added to Woldol's confidence that he could take out Queen Anri with a simple bit of trickery.

As for "the wrath of the Shining Force", remember, by the time of Shining Force CD there was no Shining Force in Guardiana. The intro cinema says so in as many words. Most of the Shining Force weren't even from Guardiana, and would have no reason to immigrate there. Adam and Max, the key leader of the Force, were both gone, presumed dead. Tao and Diane may well have died before SF CD; elves in the Shining universe don't age, and instead die suddenly of old age at around 200 years old. I can't remember the official ages of Tao and Diane, but I seem to recall they were getting on in years at the time of SF1. Gort is a likely candidate for death of old age as well. The only Force members at all likely to rally to Guardiana's defense at the time of SF CD would be Luke, Ken, Hans, Lowe, and Mae. And again, the game seems to suggest that Guardiana has been at peace for the past 20 years, so even what remained of the Shining Force would be 20 years older and out of practice.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby DomingoRules! » Fri Jul 10 2015 7:41am

Martin III wrote:And again, the game seems to suggest that Guardiana has been at peace for the past 20 years, so even what remained of the Shining Force would be 20 years older and out of practice.

As evidenced by how much Domingo, Hanzou, and Musashi suck when initially recruited. :p
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Lucifer » Fri Jul 10 2015 7:49am

Martin III wrote:Woldol's plans, I am fairly certain, went well beyond securing Cypress and the near area; he wanted to conquer all that he could.

Guardiana would have been an obvious choice for conquest, since the trusting nature of Guardianans in general and of Queen Anri in particular made them an easy target. Guardiana's war record seems weak as well; the game seems to suggest that they've been at peace with their neighbors since getting trampled into the dirt by Runefaust 20 years before. Woldol would have seen them as easy pickings, and indeed he was able to get them on their knees with little trouble.

You seem to be reading Lowe's "barbarians" comment at face value, but I've always interpreted it as an insult, since Cypress is clearly just as civilized as Guardiana. Lowe's remark seems to suggest that Cypress had successfully pulled one over on Guardiana before, presumably under Woldol, but also quite possibly under Nick's father. That would have naturally added to Woldol's confidence that he could take out Queen Anri with a simple bit of trickery.

As for "the wrath of the Shining Force", remember, by the time of Shining Force CD there was no Shining Force in Guardiana. The intro cinema says so in as many words. Most of the Shining Force weren't even from Guardiana, and would have no reason to immigrate there. Adam and Max, the key leader of the Force, were both gone, presumed dead. Tao and Diane may well have died before SF CD; elves in the Shining universe don't age, and instead die suddenly of old age at around 200 years old. I can't remember the official ages of Tao and Diane, but I seem to recall they were getting on in years at the time of SF1. Gort is a likely candidate for death of old age as well. The only Force members at all likely to rally to Guardiana's defense at the time of SF CD would be Luke, Ken, Hans, Lowe, and Mae. And again, the game seems to suggest that Guardiana has been at peace for the past 20 years, so even what remained of the Shining Force would be 20 years older and out of practice.

All fair points, and I'm willing to admit that I was wrong; however I did notice one flaw in your theory. No matter how weak and trusting Guardiana was, there was no value in conquering it. Why conquer anyone? Wouldn't it make more sense to conquer as little as possible so as not to get on anyone's radar? Woldol could've used his powers of manipulation and Ambassador status to enact his evil scheme behind the scenes, and let his unstoppable Evil Monster eliminate the kingdoms afterward. Instead, he spent his time and resources making himself known far and wide as the warlord/tactician who's conquering island nations.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby zexxar » Fri Jul 10 2015 8:45am

I think that Woldol attacked Guardiana because he really saw them as a threat and wanted to get rid of them. And so he decided to act first by attacking them and provoking a retaliation by abducting Queen Anri because in this case it is much easier for him to defend himself than when he invokes his plan and suddenly Guardiana takes a step to stop him and he would have been the one that has to react.
And what is really important is that you should not forget that Woldol succeeded in the beginning because the best warriors of Guardiana were sent never to be seen again.

With those words, Woldol disappeared in a cloud of smoke. Gardiana sent its best warriors to Cypress to kill Edmond and save their beloved Queen. The army sailed away... and was not seen again.
Ken:
It's been over a month......... since our forces left for Cypress. We haven't heard a word!
Lowe:
They were our best and bravest warriors. If they've lost, maybe Gardiana is lost, too.


And later it is revealed that they were indeed defeated

Kashing:
Some were killed. Some were taken prisoner. Only a few of us managed to escape. Let me help you free the captives in Gundoll fort!


The main problem for Woldol that made him fail was the unexpected actions of Nick about whom they had no info concerning his whereabouts before he met Bazoo

Bazoo: The truth is, Nick, we were looking for you. But you found me instead. Woldol! Take me out of here! Nick, you and I will meet again... in Cypress!


So Nick was able to form his Shining Force with by joining the forces of the remaining Guardiana Forces and the Cypress Resistance. Later even Cypress Warriors and the Guardiana Warriors joined him to form a threat that Woldol probably never expected, after having defeated the best figthers of Guardiana before and clearly having an advantage against the resistance forces.
And IMO that is what cause his plan fail.
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Trent @ Sun Apr 10 2011 1:00pm wrote:You're the ultimate team player zexxar, always coming to the rescue!


samsengir wrote:Zexxar is a fabulous human being with more sex appeal in his little finger than all of F&G put together. Possibly all of SFC combined.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Lucifer » Fri Jul 10 2015 8:50pm

zexxar wrote:I think that Woldol attacked Guardiana because he really saw them as a threat and wanted to get rid of them. And so he decided to act first by attacking them and provoking a retaliation by abducting Queen Anri because in this case it is much easier for him to defend himself than when he invokes his plan and suddenly Guardiana takes a step to stop him and he would have been the one that has to react.

After poisoning her and disappearing in a cloud of smoke, Anri's body was still lying there on the throne room floor. Woldol never abducted Queen Anri, he left her there as a reminder that they must do as "Cypress" says because only "King Edmond" could cure her.

zexxar wrote:And what is really important is that you should not forget that Woldol succeeded in the beginning because the best warriors of Guardiana were sent never to be seen again.

Although I see how that would make him over-confident of his abilities in the battles to come, I don't see how that could've had anything to do with his initial decision to conquer Guardiana.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby zexxar » Fri Jul 10 2015 9:31pm

Lucifer wrote:
zexxar wrote:I think that Woldol attacked Guardiana because he really saw them as a threat and wanted to get rid of them. And so he decided to act first by attacking them and provoking a retaliation by abductingpoisoning Queen Anri because in this case it is much easier for him to defend himself than when he invokes his plan and suddenly Guardiana takes a step to stop him and he would have been the one that has to react.

After poisoning her and disappearing in a cloud of smoke, Anri's body was still lying there on the throne room floor. Woldol never abducted Queen Anri, he left her there as a reminder that they must do as "Cypress" says because only "King Edmond" could cure her.


Yeah sorry my bad. I was mixing it up with Dava who abducts Anri in the 3rd book. :blush:
But it still doesn't change anything about my theory of him provoking a reaction from Guardiana, to get rid of a possible threat.

That's the only thing that makes sense in my eyes.
Is it his real intention ? I don't know and I would never claim it to be his true intention, so we can only continue guessing about it.
Trent @ Sun Apr 10 2011 1:00pm wrote:You're the ultimate team player zexxar, always coming to the rescue!


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Trent @ Sun Apr 10 2011 1:00pm wrote:You're the ultimate team player zexxar, always coming to the rescue!


samsengir wrote:Zexxar is a fabulous human being with more sex appeal in his little finger than all of F&G put together. Possibly all of SFC combined.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Martin III » Fri Jul 10 2015 11:58pm

DomingoRules! wrote:
Martin III wrote:And again, the game seems to suggest that Guardiana has been at peace for the past 20 years, so even what remained of the Shining Force would be 20 years older and out of practice.

As evidenced by how much Domingo, Hanzou, and Musashi suck when initially recruited. :p


I was talking about the Guardianans, not the whole of the Shining Force. Hanzou and Musashi were wandering rogue warriors seeking to test their strength and skill, so it only makes sense that they would have kept their fighting abilities well-honed. Domingo's "A wizard appears wherever he's needed" comment strongly suggests that his way of life is similar to theirs.

Lucifer wrote:All fair points, and I'm willing to admit that I was wrong; however I did notice one flaw in your theory. No matter how weak and trusting Guardiana was, there was no value in conquering it. Why conquer anyone? Wouldn't it make more sense to conquer as little as possible so as not to get on anyone's radar? Woldol could've used his powers of manipulation and Ambassador status to enact his evil scheme behind the scenes, and let his unstoppable Evil Monster eliminate the kingdoms afterward. Instead, he spent his time and resources making himself known far and wide as the warlord/tactician who's conquering island nations.


I don't think that the Evil Monster would have been all that vital a weapon in a war of conquest. It's lacking in at least two key areas, possibly three:

(1) Numbers. Evil Monster is just one creature. A successful conquest requires an army to cover wide areas of territory at a time.

(2) Direction. The impression given is that the creature is short on intelligence, so Woldol would have had a hard time giving it orders any more precise than "Go destroy those things over there."

(3) Power. The Evil Monster was defeated by a single unit of soldiers without the help of any mystic weapons, holy blessings, or spells of sealing. Woldol and his men say that once it started moving it would be unstoppable, but we have no idea to what extent that was a bluff.

Basically, I get the sense that the Evil Monster was more of an instrument of enemy demoralization than an actual guarantee of military victory.

Now of course it can be argued, even if the Evil Monster wasn't all that important, it unquestionably would have helped with Cypress's conquest, so why didn't Woldol wait until he had all his best assets ready? I think the reason is the Cypress resistance. Woldol was evidently having trouble getting rid of them, and certainly one way to solidify the position of the current Cypress regime would be to conquer other nations. It's always harder to rally opposition to a ruler who is bringing prosperity to his country. Moreover, conquered nations act as a sort of insurance for Woldol. Woldol seems like the kind of person who prepares for the worst and plants his seeds wherever he can; note how upon the defeat of Evil Monster his first thought is to flee with his stash of treasure. Had he completed his conquest of Guardiana before losing Cypress to the resistance forces, he could have taken refuge in Guardiana. He had access to all the Cypress military schematics, so he could easily have assembled a new Shining Force and led them in expelling the Cypress army from Guardiana. As far as everyone in Guardiana knew he'd been just taking orders from King Edmond, so they would have had no good reason to distrust him when he was coming to them in their hour of need. Once that was done it would have been quite natural to give Woldol a position in the Guardiana court.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Lucifer » Sat Jul 11 2015 3:30am

Martin III wrote:
Lucifer wrote:All fair points, and I'm willing to admit that I was wrong; however I did notice one flaw in your theory. No matter how weak and trusting Guardiana was, there was no value in conquering it. Why conquer anyone? Wouldn't it make more sense to conquer as little as possible so as not to get on anyone's radar? Woldol could've used his powers of manipulation and Ambassador status to enact his evil scheme behind the scenes, and let his unstoppable Evil Monster eliminate the kingdoms afterward. Instead, he spent his time and resources making himself known far and wide as the warlord/tactician who's conquering island nations.


I don't think that the Evil Monster would have been all that vital a weapon in a war of conquest. It's lacking in at least two key areas, possibly three:

(1) Numbers. Evil Monster is just one creature. A successful conquest requires an army to cover wide areas of territory at a time.

(2) Direction. The impression given is that the creature is short on intelligence, so Woldol would have had a hard time giving it orders any more precise than "Go destroy those things over there."

(3) Power. The Evil Monster was defeated by a single unit of soldiers without the help of any mystic weapons, holy blessings, or spells of sealing. Woldol and his men say that once it started moving it would be unstoppable, but we have no idea to what extent that was a bluff.

Basically, I get the sense that the Evil Monster was more of an instrument of enemy demoralization than an actual guarantee of military victory.

Now of course it can be argued, even if the Evil Monster wasn't all that important, it unquestionably would have helped with Cypress's conquest, so why didn't Woldol wait until he had all his best assets ready? I think the reason is the Cypress resistance. Woldol was evidently having trouble getting rid of them, and certainly one way to solidify the position of the current Cypress regime would be to conquer other nations. It's always harder to rally opposition to a ruler who is bringing prosperity to his country. Moreover, conquered nations act as a sort of insurance for Woldol. Woldol seems like the kind of person who prepares for the worst and plants his seeds wherever he can; note how upon the defeat of Evil Monster his first thought is to flee with his stash of treasure. Had he completed his conquest of Guardiana before losing Cypress to the resistance forces, he could have taken refuge in Guardiana. He had access to all the Cypress military schematics, so he could easily have assembled a new Shining Force and led them in expelling the Cypress army from Guardiana. As far as everyone in Guardiana knew he'd been just taking orders from King Edmond, so they would have had no good reason to distrust him when he was coming to them in their hour of need. Once that was done it would have been quite natural to give Woldol a position in the Guardiana court.

I was wrong... although, if the Evil Monster's reputation was exaggerated, then why wasn't he using his conquests to further the resurrection of Iom himself? Queen Anri and the other royals (surely there are more than the 3 we encountered {Anri, Nick, and Edmond}) could have just as easily been transported to King Warderer to be sacrificed to Iom, which would have made more sense in the big picture.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby Omega Entity » Sat Jul 11 2015 7:17am

I would say that Woldol's strike on Guardiana was more a preemptive measure than a desire to conquer - if his intent was to conquer them, he would have sent an army to overrun them after he poisoned against Anri.

No, I think that his single motivation was to try an ensure that a viable Shining Force wouldn't be assembled to foil his plans, a force which originated in Guardiana in the near past - 20 years isn't that long of a time. Time enough for people to become complacent, but not long enough that the kingdom's history is lost to the ages.

It makes sense - lure their best warriors they have into a trap, leaving their unskilled and untried behind. After all, what's the equivalent of a bunch of teenagers going to be able to do against the might of Cypress?
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Re: Guardiana

Postby DomingoRules! » Mon Jul 20 2015 6:37pm

Never underestimate the power of teenagers in a world where weak monsters live around their hometown, and the strength of those monsters grows outwardly based on where their quest coincidentally takes them from point a to point b along the exact perfect route to gain EXP. Thus is the luck of the draw that all RPG main characters are granted in order to complete their quest. Imagine if Ground Seal had been on Parmecia. Bowie and friends would've been stuck fighting witches and goblins at level 1 instead of rats and slimes.

In every RPG ever made, no hero succeeds because of bravery, love, or determination. They win because of where which monsters live in nature, and how the destinations on their quest correspond to that. That's also why underestimating the heroes always causes the villains' downfall by sending in their weakest troops first.
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Re: Guardiana

Postby realnabarl » Tue Aug 25 2015 1:52pm

They are bad guys, they just do bad things. :)
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