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Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Plus Some Game-Difficulty Thoughts

Also incorporating Shining Force Gaiden 1 & Shining Force Gaiden 2 (aka Sword of Hajya).

Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Wed Jul 22 2009 4:51am

I am really enjoying playing through this game - the bright visuals / SF-2 style animations, etc. are pretty nice and the story is at least mildly compelling - in general SF-1 style / complexity I would say.

One thing I'm wondering though is, would it be possible to construct an editor program that could modify stats / spells / monsters / etc. to provide a greater challenge, at least in Books 1 and 2 ? (I am told Book 3 / 4 are plenty tough even with a decent team).

For example....many monsters in the end of Chapter 3 and throughout Chapter 4 (of Book 1 where I'm at, at least) tend to be ineffective against the majority of a well-leveled force. I'm not talking "super leveled" either - but ....level 15 regular....Promoted....level 10-ish....and I have guys like Apis that laugh off everything.

Bosses hit him for 2...maybe. Which, to me, is a sign they aren't strong enough.

Perhaps Super Hard mode does like SF-2 and gives another 25% boost to enemy Attack values....which would basically do what I'm looking for ....but I don't know, having not tried it (I'm playing my first run on Normal, so I have a baseline to judge the tougher modes).


Also...some of the Boss magic choices and general stats are real head-scratchers.


Bazoo - 1st - Ummm.....Bolt....1 ? Well...it can hurt....but why are they limiting him with a range 2 spell ....which ultimately isn't THAT threatening. Why not either make him "Mannequin"-esque from the Circus battle and give him Freeze-3 (range 3 spell/threat) - or Bolt-2

In my view the fact that Bolt-2 does pretty weak damage anyways (basically the same as Bolt-1 , give or take 1-2 points)...would warrant the expanded threat range to make him a more fitting challenge.


Ditto with Frabell. Umm...what were they thinking ?
90 HP....okay...tolerable...except that you just threw Geppel at us with well over 100. So why the sizeable drop-down ?

Also...her stats, while "decent" are nothing all that special. Barely more than Geppel....yet giving her....DISPEL-1 ???....is their idea of a worthy magic for a Cypress commander ?

My ideal Frabell would have been something like:

Frabell
HP-150
MP-60
Attack- 65
Defense- 45
Agility (current double-turn thing is fine)
Move-6
Magic: Blaze-4
Weapon: Halberd (equipped)

--------------

Seems much more threatening / challenging.


Anyways, I don't want to stray too far (if I haven't already :blush: ) from my initial question - but does anyone know of an editor program like BNC's SF-2 editor which would work with SFCD ? Just curious.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Flygon » Wed Jul 22 2009 6:43am

I think its just that people are just simply too lazy to even bother, and going by a very brief inspection, the whole game is separated by banks.

I should extract the files and poke them, though I probably wouldn't get very far. :damnit:
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Wed Jul 22 2009 6:53pm

You're quite good at this stuff though, Flygon. If anyone can figure it out, you/rubix/BNC/Dark Kobold/ etc are the guys to do it. We have a very smart community here with a lot of good programmer-type fellows...which is a big asset to the forum as a whole.

My only "non-techie" thought was - would it be tougher to edit SFCD just because it's primarily an ISO-type instead of a Bin-type ? (although - I guess you can have it BIN-format - and still run it - correct ? I can't recall though if it will recognize it as BIN, or if .ISO is required given its "CD" original nature ?)
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Hendricks266 » Wed Jul 22 2009 7:19pm

The way to do it would be to require that the image be mounted/burned and in a drive, which then has the data extracted, modified, and converted to an ISO. Then the wave music can be added with a .cue file.

That's how the SF3 translation does it, IIRC.

It would also be an issue how Sega CD games tend to have lots of duplicate data. Sonic CD is an example of this.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Special T » Thu Aug 13 2009 2:49pm

Great minds think alike. I wanted to do a hack of Shining Force CD to import Shining Force Final Conflict into Shining Force CD. Since Final Conflict was released on the gamegear it didn't have very good graphics, I wanted to play the game with Sega CD quality sound / graphic's, and eventually add explorable towns.

I started a THREAD over at Romhacking.net to try and help me accomplish my goal, unfortunately it was too advanced for me so I gave up. Most of the documentation on Romhacking.net is for cartridge based games, not CD's.

If an editor were available, it would allow me to create my hack. So in conclusion I would love to see an editor but we have to find someone that knows how to hack CD based games first.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Thu Aug 13 2009 5:03pm

In theory, woudn't it be similiar to what the guys are doing with SF-1 and SF-2 ? The game file for SFCD can be bin or ISO....and in Bin format, it would be bigger/larger - IIRC - but that's the format that most of these editors like Space King's or Rubixcuber's open up anyways - so . . . . . wouldn't an editor in that same format work fine for SFCD ?


Also...putting all other nice change options aside, if I had the relatively simple (I would think) ability to edit monster stats (Level, HP, MP, ATT, DEF, AGI, MOVE, WEAPONS, ITEMS, SPELLS) - and nothing else, I would be ecstatic. That alone would allow me to make SFCD a very impressive challenge, as I've already raved about the AI intelligence being quite lethal (compared to other Force games). If the enemies had the full stats to go with their smarter "brains", it'd be great fun and a great challenge (Super Hard Mode is a pretty nice challenge, don't get me wrong - but even there, Book-1 enemies are pathetically lacking in HP - and the end-game monsters still don't feature strong enough attacks to damage characters that are promoted at Level 15 to 20.......the game should have been structured so that you can still get hit hard from end-game guys even if you did a later promotion...and if you DIDN'T than you effectively added to your difficulty, but it would still be beatable).

What I mean by that is since most of your characters (not counting Mages or Healers), end up with 50+ Defense by the end of the game, assuming you waited to Promote them till they were Level 15 to 20, initially, the programmers should have given the monsters Attack values that were in the 60's or 70's to make them truly challenging.

Instead, even on Super Hard, you have end-game monsters like the Wyvern with an Attack of 56 (one of the highest Non-Boss attacks in the game, IIRC)...which results in them only able to hit guys with 50-Defense for 5 or 6 points (or less, depending on the terrain the Force member is standing on). That's pathetic for the "end of the game" challenge level.

It's even worse when you consider they gave the Force the abusive and over-powered Boost spell. "Cray used Boost-2 ! Cray's Agility increased by 7, Cray's Defense increased by 15 !" - cough cough.... :stare:


Even not considering Boost nonsense, you STILL need enemies to have like 65 Attack or more, at the end of the game, to present a worthy challenge for the Force. Given that enemies in Shining Force 1 ended up with attacks in the 60's (Blue Dragon's and Chimaera's or Armed Skeleton's, at least)....the idea that NONE of them in SFCD (Book-1, at least) got up that high is just poor programming by the game developers, particularly when you consider that the stat gains in SFCD follow the SF-2 format - being more constant and consistent than in Shining Force 1. The result is that in 5 Level-ups, you can get something like HP+4, MP+3, ATT+5, DEF+5, AGI+3 in Shining Force CD.....but in Shining Force you could easily get something like HP+2, MP+1, ATT+3, DEF+4, AGI+2 (note the overall difference in gains).

So they gave you better level-ups....at least as good equipment (Valkyries, Crit Swords, Atlas's, etc)....and weaker end-game enemies. Not a good idea for overall challenge.

I'm doing Book-2 now though, on Super Hard, so hopefully I'll notice a big improvement in enemy threat-levels over Book-1's laughable end-game ones.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Hendricks266 » Thu Aug 13 2009 9:13pm

Doomblade66, SFCD is not one huge file. If you open the iso in a virtual drive or extract it with something like WinRAR, you will see that it's actually a bunch of individual files. Mega CD games are often very hard to hack because the RAM of the console is very limited, so the game programming and art have to be duplicated and repeated throughout the different files.

Special T, I was thinking of doing the exact same thing, but for SF2. The music in Final Conflict was just ported from SF2, with a few additional songs. In addition, SF2 has been well researched, so hacking it will be tons easier.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Thu Aug 13 2009 9:23pm

Okay - - - but (forgive my non-programming mind) - what would stop you from opening the thing up....finding "Enemy Stats Data" section ...then developing an editor for just that, if nothing else. Somewhere in there is the info the programmers "typed in" at some point for each Monsters Stats / Spells / Abilities /etc. Once people found it, couldn't a functional editor be created to modify those numbers ?

(Consider we effectively have mods/editors/changes to the games that have been done on this Forum for Shining in the Darkness (Dark Kobold), Shining Force 1 (Rubixcuber), Shining Force 2 (Space King and Big Nail Cow), and Shining Force 3 (the amazing translation work and file mods / patches that the Trans-Team has done). I can't imagine that the collective intelligence of this place couldn't decipher SFCD, given some time / focus. It just takes someone who understands the Hexes / Codes / etc - to "take a look at it" - which is something I lack the technical expertise to do - but which I suspect some others here COULD figure out - given how well they've done with other games in the series. Call me hopeful, that's all ;)
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Flygon » Thu Aug 13 2009 10:51pm

Doomblade66 @ Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:23 pm) wrote: Okay - - - but (forgive my non-programming mind) - what would stop you from opening the thing up....finding "Enemy Stats Data" section ...then developing an editor for just that, if nothing else. Somewhere in there is the info the programmers "typed in" at some point for each Monsters Stats / Spells / Abilities /etc. Once people found it, couldn't a functional editor be created to modify those numbers ?

If you go by my methods, the whole lot of time necessary is already a huge turn off.

It is actually very easy to hack certain parts of it without even extracting the ISO's files, I've successfully found and am able to modify monster names but of course, I'd rather do it on a clean system... which becomes difficult when the game is separated across 20ish files. God knows how people hack Playstation games.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Sat Aug 15 2009 2:18am

Well, you guys are working on another big project, currently (SF-1-Editor), so I didn't mean to suggest SF-CD was necessarily a priority - only that, in the distant future, it'd be nice to hope for an enemies editor of some sort, if nothing else. No rush though :thumbsup:
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Special T » Sat Aug 15 2009 4:26am

Hendricks266 @ Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:13 pm) wrote: Special T, I was thinking of doing the exact same thing, but for SF2. The music in Final Conflict was just ported from SF2, with a few additional songs. In addition, SF2 has been well researched, so hacking it will be tons easier.

I thought about doing that as an alternative but since I'm obsessive compulsive I really wanted to have all 3 Gaiden games in one game i.e. Shining Force CD Complete.

This game to me was a improvement in all fronts i.e. cutscenes, voice narative, great sound, good visuals except they lacked explorable towns... which was a big draw back. It didn't really feel like shining force to me it felt like more of a Fire Emblem game.

So my major two things I would love to see in Shining Force CD would be the addition of towns and the inclusion of Shining Force Final Conflict... but right now it's just a dream :)
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Earl » Sat Aug 15 2009 6:57am

I'm assuming the "BANKD##.X" are divided per battle, because there's 72 of the things. And poking around a few of them, all of the relevant icons can be found.

So it's not as simple as the Genesis games. Instead of editing one instance of, say, a short sword, you have dozens of instances. And what makes this potentially worse is the instances may be in different places in the different banks, so an editing program might have to know where a given thing is in dozens of banks of data. And multiply that by the number of items/spells/whatever.

And if you want to add towns, you'd be better off porting SFCD to SF2. Because I don't imagine it'd be easy adding a whole dimension of gameplay...

Although... The up side of hacking SFCD is that people would be able to play the hack on the actual system; the Sega CD had no copy protection, so it'll run CD-Rs just fine.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Mon Aug 09 2010 2:58pm

Just refreshing this in the sub-forum to bring it to everyone's thinking again.

I know BoneIdol - he of the SF-III editor program creation - had said something a while back to the effect he might look into SFCD to see how/if it could have an editor created for it ...but that was some months back now.

I just wondered if anyone else in the community had considered creating even a simple editor for people to try out on this excellent game / saga.

- Remember that Rubix's editor for SF-1 started out very modest, but with version after version he was putting out, it became more and more capable/improved in its ability to edit things in the original Shining Force.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby BoneIdol » Mon Aug 09 2010 4:20pm

I really, really need to clear my plate a little bit before I start yet another project. I'm currently dividing my free time between making SF3Edit capable of editing battles and freelance website work (and not, to my continued annoyance, Starcraft 2 ;)). Once I've got SF3Edit 0.90 out I'm gonna do some more work on the STHA Editor - it's been sat untouched and unloved for far too long now and could do with a bit of TLC.

However, if someone else is willing to work out how the files on the disc work I'd be happy to code up an editor. The STHA Editor I made using RikaPSO's notes only took about 10 hours coding to the state it is now. If you're very patient, I'll probably look into working out how the files work myself eventually. :)

As for the patching issue - I have been planning on writing my own custom disc patcher for the STHA editor for a while. It's going to work exactly like the SF3 translation patcher in that you either mount a disc image or insert the original game disc, run the patcher and an edited iso is created, however I'm wanting to make it work with a custom patch format that doesn't store any data from the original files (and just stores instructions on how to patch the files) so Sega have absolutely no legal standing for any kind of DMCA/EUCD takedown notice. The patches are going to be one single file that's smaller and easier to use as well, which is always nice. :)

The patch files are going to be created by comparing the original to the edited files, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to work with SFCD. :)
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Special T » Tue Aug 10 2010 2:48am

:thumbsup: I'm a fan of your work BoneIdol.

I'm looking forward to seeing an update with the STHA editor and hopefully (eventually) seeing a SFCD editor but I know you do have a lot on your plate.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Doomblade66 » Sun Sep 05 2010 3:12pm

Anyone heard from Bone Idol on the likelihood he could start up work on a SF-CD Editor program yet ? I am eagerly awaiting the chance to turn this fun game into a much better (overall) challenge by (mainly) fixing the pathetic enemy stats (relative to your Shining Force's end-game stats), and making the bosses much, much, more imposing.

My initial ideas (in no particular order) for "fixin" would be:

- Bazoo (1st battle with him) - Bolt-1 ??!! laughable - Bolt-2 and he's much more interesting - possibly make Blaze-3 and leave it at that.

- Bazoo (final battle with him) - Bolt-2 becomes Bolt-3 (Bolt-2 is pathetic in terms of damaging potential on your team at that point in the game)

- Fat King Edmond - much better stats and HP Totals for that point in the game. Basically, his "Default" stats on non-Ouch difficulty are:

HP-99, MP-30, ATT-55, DEF-43, AGI-22, MOV-5 (spells - boost 2 and heal-1 ???)


My Modified Edmond would be something like:

HP-150, MP-60, ATT-70, DEF-45, AGI-35, MOV-5 (spells: Aura-3 or Blaze-4 or both)


------------

You have too many characters like the ludicrous Apis (Knight/Paladin) who become unstoppable due to 2-shotting most enemies and barely taking any damage from their normal physical attacks. This seems to always be a problem in SF-games (SF-2 was, for the most part, able to get around this on Super Difficulty, but only for the weaponless monsters due to the way the 25% boost is calculated) ... and something I worked on (primarily) in trying to balance things for my Shining Force 1 Challenge Mod earlier this year.

---

- Enemy Spell selection much better, particularly end game:

Demon Masters with (only) Freeze-3 by the end of the game ? Why not Freeze-4 and make them "extra deadly" to your team ? Certainly give SOME enemies some Level-4 magical attacks, no ? Your team can get them (in later Books if you level normally) - so why not for the villains too ?


---

Enemy HP (particularly on Book-1) DRAMATICALLY raised. Book-1 enemies (for some bizarre reason) all have noticeably lower HP totals (but in some cases slightly higher DEF) than their Book-2 counterparts. It makes Magical attacks on Book-1 guys far more powerful and effective (since they all ignore basic DEF stats) than the same spells on level-2 enemies !

My favorite example is the Book-1 and Book-2 Ghouls:

Ghoul (Book-1)- HP-28, ATT-34, DEF-31

Ghoul (Book-2)- HP-66, ATT-42, DEF-25

!!! :shock: !!!

There is no rhyme or reason to why the Book-2 guys are so massively (better) - overall - in terms of HP and ATT, over their Book-1 counterparts.


It made Book-1 (even on Ouch) a joke, when I played through it a few years back.



My changes would (ideally) bring the Book-1 enemies up to Book-2 levels, at least in terms of HP and ATT - enhancing the overall challenge considerably.

The enemy AI in SF-CD is the most impressive (IMHO) in any Shining Game I'd played (like SF-2's, but even better, I found - as they would "Use" rings, etc they had in hand, which normal SF-2 enemies would not).

Giving them a more level playing field, where stats are concerned, would be a huge boon to the game and really enhance its replayability for me and, I'm sure, many other players.

I'll send a message to Bone Idol so he knows to look back here when he gets a chance !
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Special T » Sun Sep 05 2010 7:07pm

I know he has a lot of things going on right now but I would love to see this editor created. If anyone is good with hex editing it might be a good idea to find some of the enemy / player stat locations and post them here, that way it makes things easy for Bone Idol or anyone else that decides to make an editor for this game.

I like playing games with a new spin, like the modified / new ranges that rubixcuber allowed for in his editor. I hope eventually we are able to see something like that.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby BoneIdol » Mon Sep 06 2010 9:09am

I did say you lot would have to be patient if no one's gonna do the hex-editey bit. That's the bit that takes forever - I've been working on the SF3 save editor since January and there's still about 20-25% of SF3's saves that I don't understand (although admitedly most of that is storing your progress through the game, which takes forever to work out). :(

As you lot are saying, if anyone is prepared to do some work on the hex editing stuff, I'm more than happy to code up an editor based on whatever gets worked out. I would strongly advise that anyone taking this up hex edits the files on the disc rather than an iso or bin/cue of the disc. Doing it this way will make the edits format and region/version agnostic, which is always nice. :)

I've also had some quick glances at the files myself, and I'm pretty sure that most of the data to do with battles is stored in the bankd##.x files on the disc (## = 00 to 48 in hex, so 72 files). The first 32 files are for Book 1, the next 32 files are for Book 2 and the rest of the files are for Books 3 and 4. Once you run out of hex numbers for a book, the files start having nothing but "DUMMY" inside them until the next book.

These files have a lot of uncompressed text for common things like characters', characters' classes', enemies', items' and spells' names in them. The character names only contain the names of the characters that are in a particular book (so bankd00.x only has the characters in book 1 listed). Each string starts with the number of characters in the string (so you get 0x0E50656761737573204B6E69676874, which is {14 characters}Pegasus Knight).

I also think that each of these files have a header that is 0x110 bytes long, and the start of it appears to contain pointers to various other parts of the file (including the end of the header, so the 0x110 length can be extended if need-be).

Assuming I actually get my arse in gear and do some more serious hex editing work, has anyone got any good sites/faqs they can recommend for various stuff like enemies stats I can look up? I know Wolfgang has a site with lots of details, but its not exactly the easiest thing to navigate around. :(
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby Martin III » Tue Sep 07 2010 1:11am

BoneIdol @ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:09 am) wrote: Assuming I actually get my arse in gear and do some more serious hex editing work, has anyone got any good sites/faqs they can recommend for various stuff like enemies stats I can look up? I know Wolfgang has a site with lots of details, but its not exactly the easiest thing to navigate around. :(

The RPGClassics Shrine has a nice table of enemies, showing their stats, sprites, spells, and equipped items.
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Re: Possible to do a SF-CD Editor Program ?

Postby alex_man » Tue Sep 07 2010 3:04pm

Is nice idea so Higins can learn freeze spell or Natasha can learn bolt etc.
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