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When and how was Ian conceived?

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When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Tue Sep 22 2009 2:29am

This question has always bugged me. Mishaela claims Ian was conceived 20 years ago, and Final Conflict takes place 20 years after SF1... So, even given that Mishaela may well have been approximating, Ian must have been conceived during or shortly before SF1.

Here's where I get confused, because obviously Kane wouldn't have been siring Ian during the time he was possessed by Darksol. And immediately after Max restored him to his usual self, he was critically injured.

This leaves only three even vaguely plausible possibilities for how Ian was conceived:

1.Before Kane was possessed(which would have to be several months before SF1 at the very least, and more probably a year or two), he saw the prophet in Manarina that Mishaela spoke of. This prophet told him that Darksol is going to be resurrected at Grans Tower in a little over 20 years. In response, he finds a mistress and gets to work at siring a child. Once he is sure she is pregnant, he has her sent away to Parmecia, probably with a promise that he'll follow her there once the war with Runefaust is over.

2.During the brief time between escaping from his recovery bed in Prompt and getting killed by Darksol, Kane travels all the way to Manarina, visits the prophet, finds a maiden willing to fornicate with him and take a ship far away to the East so that her theoretical baby will be near Grans Tower when the big event happens, makes arrangements for that journey, and then rushes back to the Tower of the Ancients to settle his hash with Darksol. (Whew!)

3.Kane sees the prophet in Manarina before SF1 but is captured and possessed by Darksol before he can sire a child. When he recovers his senses in Prompt, he immediately seeks out a maiden willing to... yadda yadda.

Needless to say, #2 and #3 are more than a bit sketchy due to how briefly Kane was both sane and on his feet in SF1. As for #1, I find it troubling because (1)it's strange that a prophet could convince Kane that Darksol is actually an ancient devil king and is going to be fully revived in 20 years at a whole 'nother continent, considering how "behind the scenes" Darksol was at that point, and (2)this was all pre-Shining Force, so Mishaela's talk of Kane having Ian raised to follow in Max's footsteps and lead a new Shining Force becomes so much gibberish.

Thoughts?
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Cullsoft » Tue Sep 22 2009 9:01am

Where does it say that FC takes place 20 years after SHF1? I thought it was just SHFCD that stated how long after SHF1 it took place.

As for the options... could it be possible that there's an option #4 - without any knowledge of what was coming he happened to impregnate a woman (either willingly or otherwise - I don't think we're given much info on his pre-posession personality) before being posessed, and her child grew into becoming Ian either with or without the knolwedge of his father or his deeds? I know it sounds a bit generic and all on chance rather than anything prophetic, but it sounds plausible unless there's evidence contradicting it.

On similar grounds... could it be possible that Kane impregnated a woman during his posessed state (his destructive nature suggests that he could well be like forces of old who'd take the road of murder, pillage and rape when dealing with enemy civilians), and the child was free from Kane's posession (it's not like it'd be born with a funky mask on already)?
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Sun Sep 27 2009 4:51pm

But then why would Mishaela make up a story about a prophet in Manarina?

Where does it say that FC takes place 20 years after SHF1? I thought it was just SHFCD that stated how long after SHF1 it took place.


There's no one thing that says FC took place 20 years after SF1... You have to piece it together. First of all, obviously Ian had to be conceived before Kane's death, and Mishaela says Ian was conceived 20 years ago. Even supposing that Mishaela wasn't being exact, you have to figure that Final Conflict takes place 23 years after SF1 at the absolute most.

Further backing this upper limit up are (1)Ian doesn't look like he could be older than early 20s and (2)it would be strange for a 50+-year-old Max to be rushing into battle with Mishaela, as opposed to just directing things from the sidelines.

Next, Camelot's official timeline lists Final Conflict after SF CD, and we know that SF CD takes place 20 years after SF1. (And Max does say to Mishaela "It's taken a long time... finally, I've found you!") So that limits us to 20-23 years after SF1, with the odds strongly in favor of it being 20 or 21 years.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby ehow22 » Wed Oct 07 2009 8:49pm

2.During the brief time between escaping from his recovery bed in Prompt and getting killed by Darksol, Kane travels all the way to Manarina, visits the prophet, finds a maiden willing to fornicate with him and take a ship far away to the East so that her theoretical baby will be near Grans Tower when the big event happens, makes arrangements for that journey, and then rushes back to the Tower of the Ancients to settle his hash with Darksol. (Whew!)


Is Kane related to the Flash or Quicksilver or something?

I do find it strange that Kane would know Max was leading the Shining Force prior to being possessed.

Could he have heard it before he was possessed and done the deed before going to face-off Darksol? He could have asked the king to send her off to Parmecia and not mention it to Max. I dunno.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Demonic Weasel » Wed Oct 07 2009 9:41pm

The first option outlined does seem the most likely, due to nothing more than time constraints that are problematical in the other two.

As for rape, I basically agree that that's out, because then Mishalea would be lying about the prophet, which makes no sense. She doesn't want to legitimize opposition, after all.

But as for the complaint about the prophet convincing him that Darksol is a devil king, I have to ask, what difficulty? We don't know when, or exactly how Darksol rose to power. At the time in question, Darksol could be a newcomer to Ramladu's court and is just sniffing out those he can use, those he'll have to kill, those he'll have to control, and is beginning to make disturbing changes in the way things are run.

I don't think there's a timeline issue with that. Although I would like to note, I'd push the FC time as far up as 25 years after SF1.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Sat Oct 10 2009 12:27am

ehow22 @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:49 pm) wrote: Could he have heard it before he was possessed and done the deed before going to face-off Darksol? He could have asked the king to send her off to Parmecia and not mention it to Max. I dunno.

Hmm, I hadn't even thought of how King Kusuko might have helped out. Still seems a bit rushed, though.

Demonic Weasel) wrote:But as for the complaint about the prophet convincing him that Darksol is a devil king, I have to ask, what difficulty? We don't know when, or exactly how Darksol rose to power. At the time in question, Darksol could be a newcomer to Ramladu's court and is just sniffing out those he can use, those he'll have to kill, those he'll have to control, and is beginning to make disturbing changes in the way things are run.


Well, I would think that if it was clear to any of the general population in Runefaust that Darksol was directing things, it would have been clear to the Guardianans as well, seeing as they'd been at war with them for some time by the beginning of SF1. From what I gather, the Guardianans are pretty much ignorant as to his role, so...

The conclusion that I draw is that before SF1, Darksol was a fairly behind-the-scenes character. And I think it'd be rather tricky to convince someone that a second stringer in King Ramladu's court is actually the next best thing to an evil god and is going to be resurrected in 20 years, especially if Ramladu hadn't yet started his conquest of Rune and other craziness. The closest comparison I can think of is the scene in Back to the Future where Marty tells Doc that in 1985 the president of the USA will be Ronald Reagan.

Demonic Weasel) wrote:I don't think there's a timeline issue with that. Although I would like to note, I'd push the FC time as far up as 25 years after SF1.


Any particular reason why?
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby ehow22 » Sat Oct 10 2009 1:37am

Martin III @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:27 pm) wrote:Hmm, I hadn't even thought of how King Kusuko might have helped out. Still seems a bit rushed, though.




Only takes one time :lol: :jk: In all seriousness, though, that's all I could come up with considering the Shining Force didn't really exist until Varios and King Guardiana died, right? Unless he heard it while he was possessed and figured it rubbish until the mask was removed/broke(can't remember), which leads to the second half of my other idea.

Well, I would think that if it was clear to any of the general population in Runefaust that Darksol was directing things, it would have been clear to the Guardianans as well, seeing as they'd been at war with them for some time by the beginning of SF1. From what I gather, the Guardianans are pretty much ignorant as to his role, so...


That's another thing that gets me.....If they're at war with Runefaust and notice 'enemies' at he shrine/gate....Wouldn't you think they'd be abit more on guard than they were?

How does Mishaela know about the whole thing? Could she have been the one to foretell it? Since she posed as a fortune teller in Alterone why couldn't she do so in Manarina? But if that was the case wouldn't she have killed him herself or use him until the Force defeated him? Maybe she thought he was dead after Dragonia. My head hurts.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Demonic Weasel » Sat Oct 10 2009 5:17am

Well, I would think that if it was clear to any of the general population in Runefaust that Darksol was directing things, it would have been clear to the Guardianans as well, seeing as they'd been at war with them for some time by the beginning of SF1. From what I gather, the Guardianans are pretty much ignorant as to his role, so...

The conclusion that I draw is that before SF1, Darksol was a fairly behind-the-scenes character. And I think it'd be rather tricky to convince someone that a second stringer in King Ramladu's court is actually the next best thing to an evil god and is going to be resurrected in 20 years, especially if Ramladu hadn't yet started his conquest of Rune and other craziness. The closest comparison I can think of is the scene in Back to the Future where Marty tells Doc that in 1985 the president of the USA will be Ronald Reagan.


But the evidence we have about Kane's position in Runefaust is sketchy at best. The fact that he's such an authoritative general suggests to me that he may have held power before Darksol controlled him. If so, then he's in a position to see what's going on in Ramladu's court before Darksol comes to prominence, and if Darksol is making moves towards power of any kind that Kane doesn't like, he wouldn't try very hard not to be convinced that Darksol is evil. Not to mention, Otrant gives pretty sketchy information to Max, and Max accepts it all. That's tenous evidence for Kane, but...

I suppose its impossible to prove for certain, but it seems rather more likely to me than Kane just being convinced that some random guy called Darksol is going to be a problem in the future.

Any particular reason why?


Mostly because Max would still be in reasonable enough condition if you add a couple more years into the timeline, and it fits closely enough with Ian's apparent age. I mean, basically, it doesn't seem to stretch any of the characters to add those years on, which gives us a bit more time to work with.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Tue Oct 13 2009 1:18am

Demonic Weasel @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:17 am) wrote: But the evidence we have about Kane's position in Runefaust is sketchy at best. The fact that he's such an authoritative general suggests to me that he may have held power before Darksol controlled him. If so, then he's in a position to see what's going on in Ramladu's court before Darksol comes to prominence, and if Darksol is making moves towards power of any kind that Kane doesn't like, he wouldn't try very hard not to be convinced that Darksol is evil. Not to mention, Otrant gives pretty sketchy information to Max, and Max accepts it all. That's tenuous evidence for Kane, but...

Yeah, but I just have doubts that he could have seen what Darksol was up to at that point, even if he was in Ramladu's court beforehand(which is something I've wondered about for a long time - hopefully Mew Seeker will find something to clarify Kane's pre-SF1 situation). Not saying that what you're describing is impossible by any means, or even that I have a decent argument that it's unlikely. It's just that it seems funny to me.

...Maybe I ought to try writing a fanfic about it. Often plot elements from the games that sound funny when I think about them seem perfectly natural when I write them out.

Mostly because Max would still be in reasonable enough condition if you add a couple more years into the timeline, and it fits closely enough with Ian's apparent age. I mean, basically, it doesn't seem to stretch any of the characters to add those years on, which gives us a bit more time to work with.


Yes, but what do you want more time to work with for? That's what I don't understand.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Aldur » Tue Oct 13 2009 1:28am

Kane got freaky with a woman while he was all evil. Then destiny took over. Simple. I like it.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Demonic Weasel » Tue Oct 13 2009 2:13am

Martin III @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:18 am) wrote: Yeah, but I just have doubts that he could have seen what Darksol was up to at that point, even if he was in Ramladu's court beforehand(which is something I've wondered about for a long time - hopefully Mew Seeker will find something to clarify Kane's pre-SF1 situation). Not saying that what you're describing is impossible by any means, or even that I have a decent argument that it's unlikely. It's just that it seems funny to me.

...Maybe I ought to try writing a fanfic about it. Often plot elements from the games that sound funny when I think about them seem perfectly natural when I write them out.



Yes, but what do you want more time to work with for? That's what I don't understand.

Darksol being already somewhat active and Kane acting based off of that seems slightly more probable than him just being convinced that some random guy named Darksol is a Devil King. And that option, as you yourself noted, seemed slightly more probable than the other two.

As for having more time? Because the timeline in the first place is what's wonky about this theory; when did Kane have the time, given the events of SF1? If we add a couple of extra years on, that nicely carries off that problem.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Tue Oct 13 2009 2:35am

Demonic Weasel @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:13 am) wrote: As for having more time? Because the timeline in the first place is what's wonky about this theory; when did Kane have the time, given the events of SF1? If we add a couple of extra years on, that nicely carries off that problem.

Actually, that makes the problem worse. The more years there are between SF1 and Final Conflict, the more of a stretch it is to suppose that when Mishaela said "20 years ago a prophet in Manarina gave your brother Kane a prediction", she was referring to a time before SF1.

For instance, if Final Conflict takes place 20 years after SF1, and we don't want to think about Kane siring children during SF1, we can suppose that Ian was conceived 21 years before FC. It's not much of a stretch to suppose that Mishaela would say "20 years" when it was actually 21 years. But if Final Conflict takes place 25 years after SF1, then we'd have to suppose that Mishaela said "20 years" when it was actually 26 years - not a huge stretch, but definitely questionable. Wouldn't she have said "25 years" or "30 years" rather than 20?
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Demonic Weasel » Wed Oct 14 2009 4:16pm

Martin III @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:35 am) wrote: Actually, that makes the problem worse. The more years there are between SF1 and Final Conflict, the more of a stretch it is to suppose that when Mishaela said "20 years ago a prophet in Manarina gave your brother Kane a prediction", she was referring to a time before SF1.

For instance, if Final Conflict takes place 20 years after SF1, and we don't want to think about Kane siring children during SF1, we can suppose that Ian was conceived 21 years before FC. It's not much of a stretch to suppose that Mishaela would say "20 years" when it was actually 21 years. But if Final Conflict takes place 25 years after SF1, then we'd have to suppose that Mishaela said "20 years" when it was actually 26 years - not a huge stretch, but definitely questionable. Wouldn't she have said "25 years" or "30 years" rather than 20?

That depends on the amount of time involved. If we push Ian's age up to its logical limit, which is 25, I think we can agree, at the most, then that doesn't make him 25. He could just as easily be 23. Or just 20, yes. But if we permit ourselves, say even two extra years, I don't see a problem with Mishalea's approximation, and it means that Kane has at least a little bit of time for siring a child.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Moogie » Tue Oct 20 2009 11:35am

Interesting topic, something I hadn't given much thought to until now.
I'm going to guess that we're missing some info from SF1's original Japanese script, which would probably shed some light on this. I would guess Ian was born before the events of SF1, perhaps 4 or 5 years prior - and is probably about 15-16 in FC (he looks very young to me, will check my books to see if there's an age given). That would give Kane a few years to begin his training.

It still, however, makes little sense for Mishaela to say Ian was to follow in Max's footsteps - when those steps hadn't yet been made.

There must be something in SF1's original script to explain Max and Kane's destinies. Max had lost his memory, and Kane doesn't recall much while he's got the Mask on. Maybe before that they both knew Max was going to be a leader. There's an SF1 translation going on in the SF1 forum which could shed some light on this later.

In case I've mistranslated, here are the relevant lines from Mishaela in Japanese, and with my comments below for the translation.

ウフフフッ これはおどろきね
*guffaws* This WA surprise, ne?
マックスは どうやら
Max WA it seems like/somehow or other
なにも わかっていないようだわ
nothing/also what understand/know it seems that it does not
20ねんまえ マナリナにすむ
20 years ago Manarina to live in
よげんしゃが あなたのあに
prophet your brother
カインに あるよげんをしたことを
Kain NI a certain prophecy was done/carried out


------------

そのよげんとは われらの
That prediction WA our
ダークソルさまが このとちで
Lord Darksol GA this plot of land DE
ふっかつすると いうものだった
reviving to say thing is

それをきいた カインは
That WO disliking/strange/your request Kain WA
ダークソ ルさまを たおすために
Lord Darksol WO in order to defeat
じぶんのむすこを おくりこんだ
one's son WO to send in
。。。
それが イアン!
that GA Ian!

--------------

カインは じぶんのむすこを
Kain WA his son
シャイニング・フォースに
Shining Force
しようと したのよ
raising/trial/very important (past tense)!

おとうとである おまえを
pupil you WO
シャイニング・フォースに
Shining Force NI
したようにね
study


I shan't try to explain all the Japanese particles (wa, ga, wo, ni etc etc). Have indiciated possible alternate meanings with slashed/words,

Seem to recall some corrections from Aspartate or Landius being used in the final script.

*guffawas* Well, well, well... isn't this a surprise?!
It seems there's something you don't know yet, Max.
20 years ago a prophet in Manarina gave your brother Kane a prediction...

That prediction spoke of our reviving Lord Darksol, at this very place.
Kane didn't like the thought of that. He had a son, to send to defeat Lord Darksol.
...
and that son was... Ian!

Kane raised his son to lead a Shining Force! He studied your Shining Force so that his son could follow in your footsteps.


that last bit is in the script/game as:
Kane raised his son to lead a Shining Force, just like you, his brother, lead the Shining Force. His son was to follow in your footsteps.
which I guess was where someone corrected me?


Anyway, very interested to see what we can find from the SF1 script to tie this up.

Meanwhile, since I have my Shining boxes out, I'll check the FC book!
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Martin III » Sun Oct 25 2009 12:43am

Moogie @ Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:35 am) wrote: that last bit is in the script/game as:
Kane raised his son to lead a Shining Force, just like you, his brother, lead the Shining Force. His son was to follow in your footsteps.
which I guess was where someone corrected me?

Ah yes... I had noticed before that the script in the translation patch is different from the one on the site, but no meaningful differences had caught my eye before. Next time I play through Final Conflict, I'll have to make a few save states so that I can double check the script next time this happens.

Thanks for the info! That certainly clears up one little hitch about Ian's conception.

Meanwhile, since I have my Shining boxes out, I'll check the FC book!


Find anything?
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Moogie » Sun Oct 25 2009 6:21pm

Sadly nowt :(

Except that Ian's character concept art by Hiroshi Kajiyama is labelled as 'Arin' rather an 'Ian'.
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Re: When and how was Ian conceived?

Postby Lucifer » Fri Jun 26 2015 5:58am

Moogie wrote: years ago a prophet in Manarina gave your brother Kane a prediction...



That prediction spoke of our reviving Lord Darksol, at this very place.

Kane didn't like the thought of that. He had a son, to send to defeat Lord Darksol.


Had as in already had or had as in soon had [a son]?

ehow22 wrote:I do find it strange that Kane would know Max was leading the Shining Force prior to being possessed
.

Perhaps Kane learned this from the same prophet who informed him of Darksol's resurrection on Grans Island.
The prophecy might have gone something like this: "After a gruesome war against the forces of darkness, the legion of light, led by your brother, will best the Devil King Darksol in battle; however a Devil King will never truly die. There is an island known as Grans northeast of Runefaust, by the continent of Parmecia. On this island there is place known as Arc Valley, where evil forces gather. It is there that Darksol will eventually regain his strength, and the world will surely perish...unless a new hero of light arrives to challenge him."

(Please note that my hypothetical prophecy never stated that Max and his force would defeat Dark Dragon, therefore implying that the outcome of Dark Dragon's resurrection is one of the numerous gray areas that the Prophet's cannot foresee, and that the world is still very much at risk. Whether Dark Dragon is defeated or not, Darksol would have revived to either control it or enact his revenge [unless of course the hero of light {Ian} prevented/interrupted the ritual].)

(Source: http://www.shiningforcecentral.com/?p=studies&c=geography)
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