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SuperKarna

She misses turns if boosted?

Discussion about this classic Genesis/Mega Drive game.

SuperKarna

Postby Perpoose » Sat Feb 25 2012 10:08pm

I've recently been replaying Shining Force 2 and in an effort to build up every single character and promote at level 40, my healers have become superpowers.

Karna is currently at level 90 and seems to have capped at 200HP, while all her other stats are "??". If I make her cast Boost, she seems to become so agile that she...misses turns? As odd as this sounds, it's true. In one battle, she cast Boost and literally didn't get another turn for the rest of the battle. While my other characters moved forward, she just stayed in her original spot.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Is it possible that her agility went above a limit and it starts over at 0? for example, if her agility was 180 and it increased by 40, but the cap was 200, would the computer assume that her new agility is 20?

(p.s. I'm playing on an emulator, but have not hacked/modified it at all).
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Omega Entity » Sat Feb 25 2012 11:03pm

It's because the stats reset after they hit a certain value. I -think- it was 255 or something like that, though if I'm wrong someone will be along to correct me.
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Stordarth » Sun Feb 26 2012 3:54am

In a word, the way this game handles agility is just plain weird.

Because of the way double turns is handled, altering agility during a turn that alters how many turns you should get can throw turns completely out of whack.

Nightshade did some experimenting with the stat caps in this post, which you may find an interesting read.

Oddly, Boost should not cause a wrap-around because of one of these caps. However, that seems to be the case. i can only presume, given your level, that you are at the 200 agi cap. Since Boost is a 33% increase, you're looking at +66. Since the stats are measured via a single byte, which is at most 255, as OE said, it seems that it is wrapping around to an agility of 11. The combined effect of losing a turn, having such a low agility, and the fact that boost is a) active and b) the boost reduction value (11%, or 22) being higher than the actual perceived agility (and thus causing a negative Agility value) might be making the game go "Whoa f*ck this."
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby SirHedge » Sun Feb 26 2012 7:05am

Two things:
First, agility is capped at 100, not 200. Once it hits ?? you can't gain anymore. When I had a 100 agi Karna boost herself she reaches 127, even though the spells says she gained 37.

Second, I've totally experienced this problem, and quite a lot actually! And I have no idea what causes it. I do know it is related to high agility but beyond that I don't know. It has happened to me before without needing to use boost on the character. The number of turns skipped also appears to be fairly random. In one test nine turns were skipped initially then only two or three after that, before returning to something like seven missed turns and then back down to the 2-4 range.
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Perpoose » Sun Feb 26 2012 7:15am

Yes, you're right - her agility increases by 37 when Boost is used (her defense, on the other hand, increases in the 60s). The missing turn phenomenon seems to be quite random...I've had battles where she misses most of the action and some where she seems unaffected by the agility increase. This has also happened to Sheela because they can never get out of the spell's range.

In one battle, Karna was missing turns until an enemy attacked her. I don't know if that triggered her turn, or if it was coincidence that she was finally able to move after that...

Stordarth - Are you implying that because of the wrap-around effect, Karna has very low agility when Boosted...then as the Boost slowly wears off, she goes into the negatives and just "stops" getting turns?
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Omega Entity » Sun Feb 26 2012 7:54am

SirHedge - Stor, and others here have looked at the code extensively. It simply hides the amount after 100, and does indeed go higher.

Perpoose - Pretty much.
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Stordarth » Sun Feb 26 2012 6:13pm

Sir Hedge is part right. There is a low end cap of 100, as per nightshade's post. But yes, it can go beyond that with the right method, again going of what Nightshade posted in his findings.

The first cap is 100. The second is 200. The third is an item/boost cap that is supposed to prevent it wrapping over.

Perpoose: That seems to be what's happening, but thinking on it, it's an absurd suggestion considering the above caps in place to prevent such a thing.

I'd probably be more accurate in saying that it's the fact that the stat is being boosted beyond the cap that's doing it.

I remember reading something posted a while back that said that, as OE states, the agi keeps increasing, but doesn't go beyond 100 until the value hits 128, at which point AGI would become 1. So in the range between 100 and 127, (and 200 and 255) the game probably has an issue with these particular values due to the weird implementation of the caps.
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Lord Kane » Sun Feb 26 2012 10:27pm

I've also encountered this problem (for Karna, Slade and Gerhalt so far). After some experimenting I'm now able to reveal this mystery:

First, you have to know, how the determination of the turn oder in SF works.
The turn order is determined at the beginning of each turn. The agility value of each battle participant is taken and altered by the RNG. The variation is +/- 12,5 % of the base agility value (including equipment and boost) and an additional +/-1. Now the one with the highest agility value starts this turn and is followed by the one with the second highest and so on.

This system works without problems as long as the altered agility value is <128 or the original value (not counting boost or equipment!) is >=128!! Because if none of these two conditions is fulfilled, the character skips a turn!
There is one cap, that prevents you from going over AGI = 100 by using Quick Chickens or by level ups. So it's impossible (without editing) to go beyond this border. With editing you can go beyond 128, which results in getting double turns like bosses.

But now "Boost" enters this calculation. Boost increases your agility by 37,5 %. So if your agility value is high, can get near 128 by boosting. There is another cap, that prevents you from getting over 127 by equipment and boosting. So by now everything should still be fine. But know comes the oversight: This last cap works before the variation! That means with the help of a positive variation, the altered agility value can go over 127 so the boosted character skips a turn!!

Of course the closer the boosted agility value is to 127, the higher is the chance of being skipped, the highest possible chance should be about 49%.

Here is an example calculation for better understanding:

Base Agi = 90
No Quick Ring or Thieve's Dagger equipped
Character was just boosted
Now his new agility value is 90 * 1,375 = 123 (all results are rounded down)
After variation the altered agility value is between 123 *0,875 - 1 = 106 and 123 * 1,125 + 1 = 139.
So there's a realistic chance, this character has to skip this turn (maybe about 30%), when the RNG decides to go beyond 127.

The other way round: The lowest base agility, where you have a chance of being skipped is 83.

83 * 1,375 = 114
114 * 1,125 + 1 = 129 > 127

Hope I was able to describe the problem in an understandable way! ;)
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Stordarth » Sun Feb 26 2012 11:11pm

I knew it was something along these lines. Thanks for the comprehensive clarification, Lord Kane
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Perpoose » Mon Feb 27 2012 12:07am

Thanks, Lord Kane...that would explain why it only happens sometimes. Does RNG stand for Random Number Generator?
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Omega Entity » Mon Feb 27 2012 12:17am

Yep.
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
(8:23:45 PM) ehow1990: stupid question: why do you have hay there?
(8:23:54 PM) YsFanatic18: She was feedigng horses
(8:23:58 PM) MXC0Spike: Barn sex
(8:24:07 PM) ahath714: She stuffs.
(8:24:39 PM) ehow1990: ask a stupid question and everybody has an answer XD
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Re: SuperKarna

Postby Sarah MMNK99 » Tue Feb 28 2012 3:16am

I just had this happen with Sarah in my current playthrough, and her level isn't even that high. Level 46 promoted. I healed up right before Oddeye, and used the protect ring, and she missed about 4 turns.
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