Shining Force II: Accursed Tyrin !!!

[Corsair]

OR you could just promote him to SORC since he has the best progression of all the sorcerers. Then he won't fall behind at all.

But you would have to do so at the expensive of Kazin being a sorceror. SORC Kazin's spell progression isn't as good, but it isn't a big enough gap to make a huge difference. However, the only thing that WIZ Kazin has over WIZ tyrin is Desoul, and I (among others) generally see Desoul as a gimmicky and unreliable spell, Tyrin gets freeze, which is relatively cheap to cast and does a decent amount of damage. Freeze 3 being the second best AOE spell, IMO. (second to bolt 3; based on damage and MP usage.)

I generally like to have both Kazin and Tyrin in my party, though some would legitimately argue that it's not always necessary.

Of course I generally don't use Chaz because his starting spells are crap and by the time you get him, there aren't enough battles left in the game to make babysitting him worthwhile. I mean, if you got him around the same time you were leaving Parmecia, I'd say yeah, he's a killer.

[Stordarth]

But you would have to do so at the expensive of Kazin being a sorceror. SORC Kazin's spell progression isn't as good, but it isn't a big enough gap to make a huge difference. However, the only thing that WIZ Kazin has over WIZ tyrin is Desoul, and I (among others) generally see Desoul as a gimmicky and unreliable spell, Tyrin gets freeze, which is relatively cheap to cast and does a decent amount of damage. Freeze 3 being the second best AOE spell, IMO. (second to bolt 3; based on damage and MP usage.)

I generally like to have both Kazin and Tyrin in my party, though some would legitimately argue that it's not always necessary.

Of course I generally don't use Chaz because his starting spells are crap and by the time you get him, there aren't enough battles left in the game to make babysitting him worthwhile. I mean, if you got him around the same time you were leaving Parmecia, I'd say yeah, he's a killer.

not if you play the milestone hack.

you can promote tyrin at 20 in that. or promote them all to SORCs. [/shameless plug]

[Doomblade66]

Quite shameless.... lol...


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This whole discussion is pretty interesting though, as it made me really rethink how the characters level up - with the spell progression issue....which I had never knew before (or, at least I didn't understand that the game "punishes you" if you promote at certain points over others).

Since we have been talking about both of them....does anyone know Kazin's progression to Blaze-4 ? Like....what level does he learn it at, and would he suffer from the same penalties that Tyrin does if you promote him right away at Level-20 ??? (in other words, does it take longer for Kazin to go from Level-1 Wizard to whatever level he needs to get Blaze-4.....than it is for him just to stay a Mage and go up from 20 - onwards to whatever he would normally get Blaze-4 at ?)

[Kcid]

According to Moogie's guide, Kazin learns blaze 4 at level 35. And according to what Solby told me, it would make no difference in the progression if you promoted Kazin at 20 than if you didn't promote.

But, just in case, make him a SORC. Every time.

[Stordarth]

I can confirm this.

[Solby]

Technically if you promote Kazin at exactly level 20 it's easier because you get a free level out of it (20 to 21). Whereas if he's a mage then he has to gain that level. But yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference and as a few people have said, make him a SORC.

[Doomblade66]

What I've discovered though is, if you go to Level-30 (as I typically do with Kazin) - then it is foolish to promote (then) - and you should instead go to 35, and be assured of Blaze-4 for several battles earlier than you otherwise would.

Instead, since I promoted at 30....Kazin has been seriously gimped...as in, he's Level-9 Wizard right now, and I'm in Roft - the town where Zynk joins you, and just before the Prism Flower battle.

The thing is...with him needing Level-15 (Wizard) (35 Mage) to gain Blaze-4....that means I still need SIX more levels to get his "ultimate spell" (and yes, I know that in truth I should have him as a Sorceror, but I'm trying to play a fairly difficult team this time around on Super Mode...so he's a Wizard ).


So it would have been much, much, better for me to (as others have noted) either promoted immediately at Level-20....and probably have ended up as Level-15 by Cameela's battle (or maybe a bit earlier)....OR....just waited till Level-35 (about the same point in the game, likely)....instead you (me) really screw yourself if you promote @ 30....since you force yourself to go another 14-levels (1-to-15 WIZ) till you get your only real solid damaging magic for Wizard Kazin.

[Martin III]

So it would have been much, much, better for me to (as others have noted) either promoted immediately at Level-20....and probably have ended up as Level-15 by Cameela's battle (or maybe a bit earlier)....OR....just waited till Level-35 (about the same point in the game, likely)....instead you (me) really screw yourself if you promote @ 30....since you force yourself to go another 14-levels (1-to-15 WIZ) till you get your only real solid damaging magic for Wizard Kazin.

Isn't it another 9 levels? Since from level 30 unpromoted, you would still need another 5 levels to reach level 35.

[Doomblade66]

You are correct, Martin - in that it's actually 9 - MORE - levels (than doing it the other way) - but I was referring to the total journey from 1-15 (Wiz) // though I wasn't 100% clear, I realize.

Anyways, Kazin finally got Blaze-4 at the Prism Flower battle. He is AT LAST - sort of useful (I gave him the Running Ring as well so he can actually close range with enemies and use his sad 2-square range spell on them).

It's just goofy to me how low the damage for Blaze-3 and Freeze-3 are set in the default game, relative to what you pay to cast them....compared to the Level-4 versions...and the way they are costed.

Blaze-3 - 10 MP // about 16-19 damage, most of the time

Blaze-4 - 10 MP // about 40-49 damage !


Freeze-3 - 12 MP // about 20-24 damage, most of the time

Freeze-4 - 12 MP // about 50-61 damage, most of the time !



It's ludicrous. There should have been a better slope from Level-3 to Level-4 spells...and the costs should be modified to reflect how great the Lvl-4 versions are. In my Challenge Mod for SF-1, for instance (and I would probably carry this format over for any SF-2 Mod's I play around with) ....I had the progression go something like this:

Blaze-3 - 8-MP - about 18-23 damage

Blaze-4 - 10-MP - the usual 40-45 damage

Freeze-3 - 10-MP - 24-29 damage

Freeze-4 - 12-MP - the usual 50-55 damage


Granted, it's not a huge difference from the default values, but at least the MP costs are a bit more sensible - ie, the allmighty Level-4 versions actually cost more than their Level-3 counterparts.


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Still, back to the issue of when to promote these guys (Kazin // Tyrin) - I guess it's clear that one should always wait till they get their Level-4 spell versions, THEN promote...for the greatest effect (in Kazin's case it's particularly sensible since I think Blaze-4 is the last thing he learns anyways).

Also - what level, (Promoted) does Tyrin learn Bolt-4 at ? (or Bolt-3 even) - I recall that in the default game they have it set to some ludicrously high level you probably won't get without grinding or using Protect Ring shenanigans....?

[Solby]

Remember the range with those spell costs. Level 4 spells only hit one enemy for 55ish, while the level 3 spell can hit up to 5 for 20ish. Level 4 is still far more useful, but I don't think it's all that crazy to leave the cost the same.

If you want to get into unfair spell costs, look at Aura and Heal 4. A bit insane that a Heal 4 on every character alive costs exactly the same as a Heal 4 which only targets one character and only from right next to them. The Boost spell should cost a lot more too, IMO.

[Doomblade66]

Oh absolutely agree with you Solby --- Heal-4 and Aura-4 are absurdly equally costed...as though the designers just didn't care anymore

On the Level-4 spells...it's the fact that they are SOOO much stronger - for the same cost - then their Level-3 versions that is odd in Shining Force games. I can have Kazin hit a max of 49-damage with Blaze-4 on non-weak-to-it enemies....but Blaze-3, even as a Wizard, only hits for a max of 17-18...nearly 1/3rd as potent.

And yes...the idea of hitting up to 5-guys is cool....but I can honestly count on 1-hand the number of times I have EVER - in Shining Force-2, or probably any other SF-game, hit 5-enemies with a single spell that is not Bolt-2 or Bolt-3 (AoE) sized.

So MOST of the time, you might get a chance to hit 2-3 enemies...maybe...with a Freeze-3, for example....for like 20-damage....oooh...scary ! This does almost nothing to help you, I find...since the way the Agility works - they are likely to go before most of your other team members can, and kill off the guy who cast the Level-3 spell on them.

It's MUCH more effective, IMHO - to hit a Chaos Wizard for 50+ damage with Freeze-4, killing them instantly....then it is to hit the C-Wizard and a BowRider for 20-damage, each. This is why the Level-4 spells are so OP'd compared to their Level-3 versions.

It's also a reason why I think the general spell progression to Level-4 for most Wizards is so slow / annoying - because UNTIL they get Level-4 spells...they are very, very, weak - often dealing equal to or less (at times) than your Archer-type characters (with Lvl-3 magic hits).

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[Space King]

A lot of that has to do with the simple targeting - if you could target empty ground there would be a lot more chances to hit two and three targets at once.

In fact was the earliest complaint one of my friends had when playing it decades ago. Spoiled from Pool of Radiance or something..

[Martin III]

The level 3 spells can also be useful for when the enemies are at less than full HP. Say you have two enemies next to each other, one with 15 HP, one with 70 HP.

Approach one: You hit them with Blaze level 3, killing the first enemy and leaving the other with ~54 HP. You finish off the second enemy with regular attacks from two other units.

Approach two: You hit the second enemy with Blaze level 4, leaving him with ~30 HP. You can probably still finish both of them with your two other units, but the first enemy might get his move before then.

Approach three: You hit the first enemy with Blaze level 4, finishing him. But now the second enemy is still at full health, so it will take more than two attackers to finish him.

The main thing to note here is that Approach two is clearly not as good an option as Approach one, even though the net damage caused by the spell is greater.

EDIT: Deleted a line of my post that made no sense in context. I was working on a secondary point, decided it would take too long to explain, then forgot to delete the line I'd already typed up.

[Doomblade66]

I will grant you - readily - that the Level-3 spells and their AoE's are quite useful from time to time....no doubt. My critique, and it's a modest one, is that they aren't (most of the time) "strong enough" - relative to:

A.) What you pay for them in terms of MP - particulary when weighed against the Level-4 versions....which, surprise - surprise - use the painfully uninspiring "same MP cost as the Level-3 version" - model.

and

B.) Do significantly lowish damage - especially at the points you are forced to rely on them - and against the enemies (and HP totals) that you are up against - for too long in the mid-to-end game period. Thus Kazin, as a Wizard, is horribly gimped, compared to many other characters, in terms of how much damage he can do to enemies, all the way up to and past Zalbard (sometime after which he will "normally" learn Blaze-4 if you promoted around 20-Mage).


I don't advocate for "massively" stronger Level-3 versions either...but Kazin limited to 14-17 damage for most of the game is a bit goofy, IMHO.

[Martin III]

Yeah, I agree that not being able to do more than 17 damage for so long is a problem. Often I feel that in SF2 you're just dragging Wizards along until they learn a level 4 spell.

So yeah, no argument there. I just don't think the MP cost is an issue, partly because level 3 offers advantages over level 4 anyway, and partly because I don't feel the game's spells have to all have the same value per MP cost. Many RPGs deliberately follow a model where higher level spells are not only higher power, but give more bang for the buck. I think the idea is "Okay, you've become more proficient at this spell, now you can use it more efficiently."

Certainly the Shining Force games tend to do the opposite of that model, with higher levels spells generally being increasingly less MP efficient - at least, that's the impression I get. This is a good design because it keeps lower level spells useful, and with a maximum of four spells to a character, there's plenty of room for more spell variety. But I don't think it's necessary in this case, since Blaze 3 and Freeze 3 are still useful even without being as MP efficient as Blaze 4 and Freeze 4.

But I do understand your issue with the MP cost of the spells, really. I'm just explaining why it isn't a problem for me personally.

[Solby]

Yeah, I agree that not being able to do more than 17 damage for so long is a problem. Often I feel that in SF2 you're just dragging Wizards along until they learn a level 4 spell.

IMO one of the flaws that offset a flaw in SF1 was that the enemies never seemed to have respectable HP (save the Chimaeras and Blue Dragons), so 17ish damage was surprisingly good for a long time. In SF2, they "fixed" the enemy HP problem, but the level 3 spells weren't really adjusted.

Personally, I think every level spell except 4 should do more damage than it does. That way level 1 would get you a little further than it does, level 2 would get you a little further than it does, and level 3 might actually be pretty useful until you get level 4. In the case of Freeze maybe 11, 20, 28 would be better damage for levels 1, 2, and 3, you would just have to wait slightly longer to learn them.

[Doomblade66]

That's similiar to how the damage spread goes in my SF-1 Challenge Mod, over in the SF-1 Sub-forum. Freeze-1 stays roughly the same (10-ish damage) ....then Freeze-2 can hit up to 14-15, I think....and Freeze-3 regularly hits for 22-28 or 29, and so it's a lot more versatile and you aren't thinking "gee, if only I had a spell that was actually useful ...." for so much of the game.

Also, the spells MP-slope is intentionally (sensibly, IMHO) set up so they always grade upwards. Thus:

Blaze-1 - 2 MP
Blaze-2 - 5 MP
Blaze-3 - 8 MP
Blaze-4 - 10 MP

Freeze-1 - 3 MP
Freeze-2 - 6 MP
Freeze-3 - 10 MP
Freeze-4 - 12 MP

Bolt-1 - 7 MP
Bolt-2 - 14 MP
Bolt-3 - 18 MP
Bolt-4 - 20 MP


This way there are times you purposely will pick a level-3 version because it costs less MP (and has the advantage of hitting multiple foes) - over the stronger level-4 variant.