Shining Force: SF1 Editor

[projectego]

I've just got back from vacation and I'm so thrilled to see such awesome progress with the teleporter issues. I'm going to get stuck into a fresh playthrough right now and see what's what.

Lobo: Great work in spotting those issues!

RC: I feel a little silly asking this, but just for my absolute clarification: When starting afresh with a new, unedited ROM, in the latest version of the Editor, we don't have to make use of the Debug fixes do we?

[rubixcuber]

That is correct. The debug fix just corrects ROM that had already been saved.

[projectego]

That's awesome. I'm absolutely in love with the new Extended Characters functionality and the Editor is still a blast to use; thank you so much for making everything simple and intuitive.

Whereabouts does the in-game save system stand at present? Is this something you are going to revisit when Extended Characters is finished? Actually, are there any bugs left over at present that we know of?

[rubixcuber]

Just the save files I think. I might take a look at that soon. Well and expanding the hq positions

[projectego]

Sounds amazing! How difficult do you feel the expanded HQ position options will be to implement? And while I'm sure much of it is going to fly right over my head, what exactly is involved with fixing the save system? I'm guessing that as you have moved data around, you will have to reprogram the engine itself to search for the data in the new spot(s)? Something tells me that there is a great deal more to it than that, also.

[rubixcuber]

Not difficult at all, especially compared to the rest of the character expansion stuff. Pretty much the same deal as any of the other tables, just need to move it somewhere and give it more room to grow and then build the tiles into the editor.

As far as the save data, I'm not 100% sure the extent of it. I need to change how it saves the character data since I expanded and moved that. And the list of what characters have joined the force. And then clearly I need to change the way it reads the hero's name to label the save file to pull from the new data. And since I am adding more data to the saves, I either need to expand and relocate the save files or split them up into two chunks, maybe throw the new character data at the end. Nothing crazy difficult, just a lot of little things to check and work out.

[projectego]

Wow - that's really good to hear that the HQ placements isn't going to give you too much of a headache. It's been fun seeing the HQ map screen within the Editor flourish over the Editor releases. Can't wait to see all of the new Force members make an appearance there. Is this something that you are currently working on?

Oh man, that save data stuff sounds very fiddly indeed. Hopefully it'll turn out to be a satisfying sort of challenge, and less so the hair-pulling kind.

[Lobo]

Currently at chapter 6, first battle.
No problems so far!


Is the 32 limit expandable inside the HQ?
Can you put more than 32 sprites in a map?

[rubixcuber]

Heh, yeah. I wasn't thinking about that part really when I answered before. I mean, theoretically yes. But that may be a thing I'll probably put off for later. Right now basically the HQ position editing is done but it does blow up past the sprite limit.

I talked about it a little earlier in the thread, but we could move all of the sprite related RAM tables and try to give them more room so we can have more sprites. But that's an undertaking that's basically like the character expansion but probably even more work.

[projectego]

Sounds like a challenge and a half. Are you up for it or would it be too much of a pain in the neck?

[Lobo]

Would it be possible/easier to create another map that would work as a second floor of the HQ?
Then you could put the extra characters there and don't worry about the sprite limit.

[projectego]

RC, bit of a question out of the blue, but I'm currently in the process of porting over some Shining Force II characters into this game. The Character Expansion feature is working absolutely flawlessly so far, and I'm having so much fun blasting through the game with these new characters. The only issue that I've run into is not even a fault of the game or the Editor, but an inconsistency with the characters (both ported over from SF2) because of a feature introduced in SF2: auto-reviving after each battle.

I'm all but certain this has been asked within the last few months but cannot find the source, but would it be possible to grant specific Force members the ability to spring back to life after each battle completion or escape? Obviously bypassing the need to revive them via the Priest. The SF2 characters Peter and Lemon make use of this mechanic, and because they are both now present in my mod, it would be astronomically amazing if they could retain these abilities from the sequel.

What do you think, RC?

[Lobo]

And what about the +30/+19 rule for map and battle sprites?
Are you changing all the corresponding sprites for SF2 characters?

Have Rubix said something about the hardness/easyness of implementing a feature for us to choose those sprites numbers manually in the characters editor?

[projectego]

At present I'm just importing them as promoted units (Bowie joins as a Hero and not a Swordsman, for example), mainly just to avoid the headache of the 30/19 rule (I like how that now has a name!)

I'm sort of explaining away the pre-promoted implementation as the SF2 characters travelling backwards in time after the defeat of...

Spoiler

ZEON!

(pretty sure everybody and their dog has completed SF2 by now, but I suppose a spoiler wouldn't hurt...)

Actually, Lobo, I was meaning to ask, would it be of any use to you if I were to upload the SF1-ified SF2 battle, map and portrait sprites? As you probably know, the Caravan editor for SF2 exports graphics in a different format that can (and does!) take a lot of time to get into a format suitable for use in the SF1 Editor. I'm not finished with all of the SF2 Force graphics yet, but I'm about 60% done. I probably won't do all of them as they cannot all fit into the extra 20 Force slots that RC has made available, but I'm cherry picking my favourites.

I haven't heard RC's opinion on that feature but I did request as much in my last feature request post a page or two ago. I don't really have a major problem with the way that Sega's engine handles the whole 30/19 rule, it just mainly means some careful sprite juggling and some occasional blank spaces.

Lobo, do you recall any mention of the auto-revive mechanic or if RC has already answered this? I'm sure it was discussed only a few months ago but cannot for the life of me find the source! It would make my day to be able to give Peter and Lemon the ability to resurrect themselves after battle.

[rubixcuber]

2nd map would be a good option, but would require some research. Might look into that at some point.

30/19 - Maybe? I'd just been doing it like projectego described. Didn't think it was a huge detriment. Is it causing problems for you?

Auto revive - I dunno. What does that really accomplish though other than saving a little money in a game that generally gives you more money than you need?

[projectego]

RC: I'd personally love to see the option available because both of those characters sport the auto-revive ability in Shining Force II. Peter is a phoenix and Lemon (what a name!) is an immortal vampire. Essentially, if killed in battle, they are automatically brought back to life without penalty of any kind and fit and ready for the next battle, but obviously remain 'exhausted/dead' and inactive for the remainder of the current battle. In my eyes, it would make the characters even more authentic to their SF2 counterparts and also further bring SF1 up to speed with SF2, functionality-wise.

Just out of curiosity, how difficult of a feature would this be to implement? I ask as I am genuinely interested in your process, and also to learn more about what is feasible with the current engine.

Speaking of SF2 character ports; here's a quick Odd Eye idle #1 WIP by Dan:

[Lobo]

30/19 - Maybe? I'd just been doing it like projectego described. Didn't think it was a huge detriment. Is it causing problems for you?

Well, either I'm not seeing the best route or it's quite annoying to follow the 30/19 rule.

For example, if I want to create one new character, I have to either:

a) substitute two map sprites with a difference of 30 between them; or
b) click the 'Add new sprite' button 31 times, so that I can use the first and the last one I created.

In the (a) case, I also have to change those sprites numbers in the Map editor, whichever map those sprites were to show up. Also, I'm not sure if I have to search the Event editor for them. Hope it's not the case.

So, the (b) case seems the easier one. But...even if I don't mind clicking the button so many times, I couldn't find a way to add new sprites in the Map editor, so that I can make the new sprites appear ingame before joining up. Is it possible?

The battle sprites have related options too. With the 'best' route seemingly to click the 'Add new sprite' button 20 times and use the first and last ones.

Am I doing it all wrong?



EDIT:

Actually, Lobo, I was meaning to ask, would it be of any use to you if I were to upload the SF1-ified SF2 battle, map and portrait sprites? As you probably know, the Caravan editor for SF2 exports graphics in a different format that can (and does!) take a lot of time to get into a format suitable for use in the SF1 Editor. I'm not finished with all of the SF2 Force graphics yet, but I'm about 60% done. I probably won't do all of them as they cannot all fit into the extra 20 Force slots that RC has made available, but I'm cherry picking my favourites.

Well, I'm not planing to use SF2 characters. But I think having new sprites available is really worthy for us as a community.
Even if there's none to use an especific sprite, it can always be used as a base for drawing new ones.
Maybe we should find a place/ask the administrators to host them all.



EDIT2:
Have you guys found a way to solve the problems with palettes when exporting/importing GFX?
Enemies map sprites are still going wrong for me when doing that.



EDIT3:
I went on with the option (a) above and it seems that changing sprites in the Map Editor is crashing the game.

I made the changes in: Graphics Editor, Characters Editor and Map Editor. The game crashed.
I then reedited the usable rom changing only Graphics and Characters Editor. The game didn't crash.
Finally, I edited the Map Editor over that edited rom and it restart crashing.

It seems to crash whenever I talk to someone.
Even when starting the game from the begining, it crashes in Varios first line of speak. But only after he shows up. (Those lines he speaks during the black screen work ok).

Any hint on what's causing that and how to fix?

[projectego]

Hey Lobo, sorry for the late response. I didn't think I would be the best person to answer your questions but I'll give it a shot.

When it comes to the +30 rule for map sprites, I'll typically add new promotable character map sprites as early as possible and during the 30 spaces leading up the new promotable character map sprite, I'll fill those slots with new NPCs, enemies, all that jazz. I personally don't feel that this is that big of a deal; I actually keep a text file in my mod folder called 'Register' which basically has an ordered list of battle (Force and enemy), map, portrait sprites, etc. in the order that they appear in-Editor and what their ID is. This makes it very easy to track down a specific character or graphic without having to have to skim through the graphics folder(s), which are really quite large for me, now.

Have you guys found a way to solve the problems with palettes when exporting/importing GFX?
Enemies map sprites are still going wrong for me when doing that.

Hmm. I'm not familiar with that problem. How would I go about recreating it? I have a lot of custom palettes so this could be an issue for me.

I am having a strange problem with the alternate/enemy map sprite colour palette, though; no matter what I can't get enemy map sprites to appear as they should in the correct alternate palette. They are sort of locked to the Force/regular colour palette and when selected for the alternate/enemy colour palette they show up in completely the wrong colours. Here's an example of a fresh ROM with no changes to the palettes or map sprites:



As you can see, Kane's cape appears brown instead of purple and his Sword of Darkness is now a curious shade of orange. Pretty sure that all characters that use the alternate colour palette are showing this problem.

EDIT3:
I went on with the option (a) above and it seems that changing sprites in the Map Editor is crashing the game.

I'll check that out ASAP and see what I find. Did you add any new map sprites to the map or just replace which map sprites show up? And which map or maps did this issue occur on?

Edit: Okay, I've been able to reproduce how to cause the alternate sprite colour palette issue above:

1. Load a fresh ROM
2. Expand ROM to 6MB
3. Go to Graphics and view the Map Sprite screen
4. Hit Add Sprite
5. Add ANY new map sprite set (160_03.bmp) to the GFX > Map > Sprites folder
6. Import via the Graphics screen
7. Previous alternate colour palette map sprites now display certain colours incorrectly

tl;dr: Adding even one new map sprite (in this case 160_0-3.bmp) will cause all previous instances of map sprites using the alternate map palette to display certain colours incorrectly.

Edit 2: Here's another quick bug/inconsistency:

1. Using the Import Characters tool (File > Import via the Characters screen) will not import sprite data values, such as map sprites, unpromoted portraits and maybe not battle sprites. Curiously, promoted portrait values are imported.

[Lobo]

Have you guys found a way to solve the problems with palettes when exporting/importing GFX?
Enemies map sprites are still going wrong for me when doing that.

Hmm. I'm not familiar with that problem. How would I go about recreating it? I have a lot of custom palettes so this could be an issue for me.

I am having a strange problem with the alternate/enemy map sprite colour palette, though; no matter what I can't get enemy map sprites to appear as they should in the correct alternate palette. They are sort of locked to the Force/regular colour palette and when selected for the alternate/enemy colour palette they show up in completely the wrong colours. Here's an example of a fresh ROM with no changes to the palettes or map sprites:



As you can see, Kane's cape appears brown instead of purple and his Sword of Darkness is now a curious shade of orange. Pretty sure that all characters that use the alternate colour palette are showing this problem.

Think that's what I was talking about.
When importing/exporting graphics, some colors get corrupted.
Kane is a good example. Those same colors changes happened to me.

Lobo wrote:
EDIT3:
I went on with the option (a) above and it seems that changing sprites in the Map Editor is crashing the game.

I'll check that out ASAP and see what I find. Did you add any new map sprites to the map or just replace which map sprites show up? And which map or maps did this issue occur on?

I didn't add any sprites to the map.
Just changed some sprites numbers to maps 0, 25, 26, 34, 45 and 47.
All the sprites were related to either Kane, Varios, Alef or Torasu.

The strange thing was that the game crashed even when talking to people in other maps. Maps I didn't change anything.

[projectego]

Do you know if the colour palette bug is also affecting battle sprites and/or portraits? I don't have access to the Editor at the minute so I can't check it.

I'll check out the crash issue next time I'm on my PC. Would you be able to try the same scenario but with an unedited ROM? It might help RC with troubleshooting.