Welcome to the Shining Force Central Forums!
SFC Forums Index Shining Forums Shining Force
Register for your free forum account now or Login to remove this advert.

SF1 Editor

Updated 12/28/16 (v2.10.5)

Discussion about the original classic Genesis/Mega Drive game. Posts about the GBA remake belong in the forum below.

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Sun Jan 08 2017 11:19am

rubixcuber wrote:Nova is a valid(ish) force member and takes up one of the slots. I dunno if it's better to cut him out when expanding characters or leave him in to be finished/edited.

If it's not too difficult, it would be great to have him completed. I'd be happy to get my artist to complete all necessary battle frames and release them for free. Let me know what you decide and I'll give my guy the go-ahead if needed; he's typically able to get a job of this size done in around 1-2 weeks.

rubixcuber wrote:And even though this means it would be easy to add as many more slots as we wanted, we still have the 32 sprite limitation which basically means there's not really room for showing more characters waiting.

That's a shame, but it's not the end of the world. I might even edit the HQ graphics to have a non-accessible room visible and that could explain away where the new characters are chilling out or something. I'm sure there's lots of creative ways around this.

Is the 32 sprite limit something that could feasibly be expanded? Or would that be a little too out-of-scope for the Editor?
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby ShininGeek » Sun Jan 08 2017 2:49pm

The 32 sprite limit is a limitation of the genesis itself, I believe. Expanding on it would be difficult.
Perfection is not an option, it is a requirement.
Perfection is not an option, it is a requirement.
ShininGeek

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Nov 03 2013 6:12pm

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby rubixcuber » Sun Jan 08 2017 7:02pm

Well, I mean the total sprite limit on the Genesis is 80, so that shouldn't be a problem at least.

But I would need to expand and relocate the tables used by the game itself to store information about all of them, which is very non-trivial.

At least for the first iteration might need to just be happy with only lIke 18 unused members hanging around HQ
rubixcuber

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Nov 18 2008 4:36am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby ShininGeek » Sun Jan 08 2017 7:35pm

rubixcuber wrote:Well, I mean the total sprite limit on the Genesis is 80, so that shouldn't be a problem at least.


Really? If the limit was removed, would it be possible to eliminate the 20 enemy limit in battles? And now I'm thinking of battles with 68 enemies... it's both wonderful from a modding standpoint and terrifying from a players standpoint...
Perfection is not an option, it is a requirement.
Perfection is not an option, it is a requirement.
ShininGeek

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Nov 03 2013 6:12pm

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby rubixcuber » Sun Jan 08 2017 7:45pm

It'd be a completely different set of code and tables to modify for battles. Very difficult in both cases. I'm not sure where if anywhere there's a big enough chunk of unused RAM to both expand and relocate those tables.

The problem isn't the sprites themselves, but all of the data tables related to them. Like the stat table for battle members.
rubixcuber

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Nov 18 2008 4:36am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Sun Jan 08 2017 8:37pm

I'd be happy even if none of the expanded Force members were visible in the HQ. Just having them available via the Join screen is already pretty mind blowing. But I was wondering, if you were to pick up the bare minimum of original Force members throughout a playthrough, does that mean that at least some of those 18 HQ slots could be taken up by new 'extended' Force members? Or are they going to be visible/available only via the Join screen? Just curious. I imagine that if they are indeed able to show up in the HQ, additional work would be required to afford them unique dialogue.

Also, I'm dabbling quite a bit with the Battle system. Going by the 32 sprite limit per battle screen, would it be possible to have the enemy count metre go up as you remove playable Force members from battle? I notice that the game/Editor allocates 12 spaces for Force members for every battle, but it takes several battles before you have a team of this size, so I would presume that early on it should(?) be possible to allow for greater than 20 enemies per battle? In fact, I've actually downsized the Force member quota to 8 in my mod, so really it'd be great to be able to make use of 24 enemies per map.

tl;dr: Would it be possible to have the Editor dynamically increase/decrease total enemy count per battle based on how many Force member slots have been claimed?
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Earl » Mon Jan 09 2017 1:54am

rubixcuber wrote:And even though this means it would be easy to add as many more slots as we wanted, we still have the 32 sprite limitation which basically means there's not really room for showing more characters waiting.

The most obvious (if partial) solution to this is splitting up the HQ. One floor with the active party + Nova, a second floor for the reserves. Or it could be broken up further, with the reserves split between, say, a training room, a kitchen, a sleeping area, etc depending on what was appropriate for a given character.

Which is probably a bigger footprint than you'd want to leave on the base game
Earl

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 2823
Joined: Sat Apr 24 2004 6:39am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Lobo » Mon Jan 09 2017 1:14pm

projectego wrote:
rubixcuber wrote:Nova is a valid(ish) force member and takes up one of the slots. I dunno if it's better to cut him out when expanding characters or leave him in to be finished/edited.

If it's not too difficult, it would be great to have him completed. I'd be happy to get my artist to complete all necessary battle frames and release them for free. Let me know what you decide and I'll give my guy the go-ahead if needed; he's typically able to get a job of this size done in around 1-2 weeks.


Have you asked him to make Kane's animation as a force member?
This would be great for mods! :thumbsup:



projectego wrote:
rubixcuber wrote:And even though this means it would be easy to add as many more slots as we wanted, we still have the 32 sprite limitation which basically means there's not really room for showing more characters waiting.


The most obvious (if partial) solution to this is splitting up the HQ. One floor with the active party + Nova, a second floor for the reserves.


Seems a pretty good and simple solution to me.
Of course we would have to mess with maps and the Events editor to connect the maps, which I haven't mastered yet... :blush:
But maybe someone could set this for rubix to save the routine in the editor to (hopefully) enable it with a checkbox mark. :shifty:
Well, maybe it's not that simple, but still seems to me way easier than expanding and relocating all those tables...
Lobo

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 17 2004 5:31pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby rubixcuber » Tue Jan 10 2017 9:36pm

Well, pretty much the list to get new characters working is this:

Adjust editor to handle extra characters Done
Relocate/expand stat growth tables
Relocate main data table Done
Handle spell progressions Done
Add new tables for setting map sprites Done
Make the game use the new map sprite table when displaying force members Done
Add new tables for setting portraits Done
Make the game use the new portrait table when displaying force members Done
Relocate/expand flags for which characters have joined
Expand/modify hq slots?
Relocate/expand hq messages
Modify character init routine
Modify hq status/join screen
Relocate/expand force stats RAM table
Relocate/expand level promoted at table
Modify add member routine
Modify check if member has joined routine

Still a ways to go...

WARNING: SPOILER!
rubixcuber

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Nov 18 2008 4:36am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Tue Jan 10 2017 11:18pm

Incredible work as always, RC. I didn't realise there were so many angles to cover. Would this one be up there as one of the more difficult undertakings thus far?

Lobo wrote:Have you asked him to make Kane's animation as a force member?
This would be great for mods! :thumbsup:


WARNING: SPOILER!
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Lobo » Wed Jan 11 2017 1:47pm

They are great!
And it feels quite awesome to know it's going to be even better. :excited:

The only issue about the second one is he's still wearing his mask/helmet, which I think wouldn't be the case if he was to join the force.
We would probably have to redo his map sprite as well, to take the mask off. But it's waaaay easier than the attack sprites. Think I could do that myself.


################

As for the latest updates, it seems to me the editor is pretty much ready to edit existing characters, which seems more important than extending them. It's an important achievement already Rubix! :) :thumbsup:


##################

EDIT:
Went on to try out the map sprites already.

WARNING: SPOILER!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Lobo

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 17 2004 5:31pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Thu Jan 12 2017 9:42pm

Lobo:

WARNING: SPOILER!


RC: Hope all is going well! Seems like that list of tasks gets longer and longer every time that I look at it!
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby rubixcuber » Thu Jan 12 2017 10:00pm

Heh, yeah. Sorry. Slowed down a bit.

I finished the 'Relocate/expand hq messages' step.

So... slightly closer.
rubixcuber

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Nov 18 2008 4:36am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Lobo » Thu Jan 12 2017 10:14pm

projectego wrote:Lobo:

WARNING: SPOILER!


RC: Hope all is going well! Seems like that list of tasks gets longer and longer every time that I look at it!


I hope to make and post the back sprite by tomorrow.
Won't mess with the palletes though.
But I see your point. Maybe someday I'll do that.
Or, you can do that if you wish.


You said 'promoted and unpromoted states' for Kane...but wouldn't he join a bit late to be unpromoted?
And, more importantly, will the editor allow to choose if a character joins promoted or unpromoted and, if promoted, to set at which level he earned the promotion?

Another doubt/request: will the expanded characters business include expanded classes as well?
Lobo

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 17 2004 5:31pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Thu Jan 12 2017 10:24pm

Lobo wrote:You said 'promoted and unpromoted states' for Kane...but wouldn't he join a bit late to be unpromoted?
And, more importantly, will the editor allow to choose if a character joins promoted or unpromoted and, if promoted, to set at which level he earned the promotion?

In my mod, Kane joins immediately after the scuffle with Darksol at the top of the Tower of the Ancients, pretty much at the exact same time as Alef and Torasu (both of whom join the Force unpromoted), so I feel it's okay for him to join unpromoted, too. I also like the idea of being able to make use of Kane with and without his mask. Like Max, he joins as a SDMN, and promotes to a HERO, so the Editor is already capable of handling everything pretty much perfectly.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Lobo » Fri Jan 13 2017 1:02am

The way I see it, Kane should have been a Hero since Dragonia, as the door 'opens only for two heroes'.

Anyway, by the time Alef and Torasu join, Musashi would have joined at level 10 promoted.
So, I think both Alef and Torasu, as well as Kane should join promoted.

But the it's only a point of view.
If the editor can handle this choice - add him and choose between promoted or unpromoted - that would be the best!
Lobo

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 17 2004 5:31pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby projectego » Sat Jan 14 2017 12:07am

Lobo: I actually think that's a great argument, and I honestly feel that it's a disservice to have Kane join as a SDMN (took me a long time to finally settle on this), but my main reason for doing so was because while it makes total sense to have Kane join without a mask (and he does in my mod), I know the kid in me feels that the character of Kane is synonymous with that scary-awesome mask. Those horns, that crest - day-um. In my mod I have tried to rationalise the mask as being a instrument of power and one that Kane can finally now wield without being a puppet of Darksol. Even so, I flit between both implementations.

RC: I bet you're busy as heck, but thought I'd raise a few of these items now as I've discovered a couple of bugs within the Editor. I'll just go through them as they appear in my notes:

1. Would it be possible to remove 'empty' level ups? I'm pretty sure this was a 'feature' in SF2, also. Essentially, no matter what, whenever a Force member levels up, they will at the very least earn a +1 something - never ever nothing. I find that when I (as well as returning players) get an empty level up, I just reload a recent savestate and try again.

2. Would it be possible when purchasing a weapon from a seller for there be a prompt to equip the weapon immediately after the transaction is completed? This would be another SF2 feature that would be quite cool to see retrofitted into SF1.

3. Do you know if portraits #50 and #51 (duplicate Guardiana King portraits) are ever used in-game? Would it be safe to replace these portraits without breaking any in-game... cutscenes?

4. If you import a map sprite designed primarily with enemy/alternate map sprite colours, the Editor will load them perfectly fine with the correct colours displayed but the 'enemy palette colours' box will not be checked. Checking the box will revert back to the default map sprite colours. Seemingly no matter how you save file map sprite, the next time you load up the Editor and check out the map sprite it display the default colour palette and the enemy/alternate colour palette (when checked) will no longer display the correct colours.

This isn't really a big deal as I personally edit map sprites with the default colour palette knowing that they will appear just fine when the enemy/alternate colour palette is checked, but when my artist whom is not at all familiar with the mechanics of SF1 designs artwork with the enemy/alternate colour palette in mind and hands them back to me, I have to re-edit the sprites back to the default colour palette (making them look weird as hell) and remember to check the enemy/alt colour palette option in-Editor. Not complaining - I love that the Editor allows us to extend the NPC/enemy roster, but my artist has completed over 30 unique map sprites so far (over 90 including side and rear-facing variants) and editing them one-by-one means less time for other stuff.

5. Bug: When editing map sprites, the 4x4 pencil drawing tool works identically to the 1x1 drawing tool. The 2x2 drawing tool works perfectly. I personally very, very rarely use the 2x2 or 4x4 options, but thought I'd let you know that the latter is not working as intended.

6. Bug: Here's a big one that I haven't properly figured out, but here's the gist: Importing a new portrait #52 works perfectly. However, importing ANY portraits onwards will result in a borked colour palette - one identical to portrait #52. I went and mass-imported approx. 30 unique portraits earlier, and 29 (everything after portrait #52) seemed to have been imported with the exact same palette as #52.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
Oh, hi! I'm Steve. Catch me on Steam.
projectego

User avatar
Shining Member
Shining Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 12 2009 9:10pm
Location: UK

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Earl » Sat Jan 14 2017 4:26am

The view I always had was that the mask had no power other than switching the alignment of the wearer. Or at the most, his wearing the mask brought him deeper into darkness, which in turn made him more effective with that sword. In that scenario... a masked Kane is evil, and cannot join the Force... an unmasked Kane is good, and cannot wield the sword as well (explaining away any drop in stats).

The Two Heroes thing is a good argument.
I can also see where a case might be made that... if evil Kane is basically anti-hero, his transition to good is such a toll, comes at such a physical and emotional cost, that good Kane could be considered knocked down a peg and starts at Swordsman. I mean, I think the hero thing makes more sense, but I can see that side too.
Earl

User avatar
Shining Legend
Shining Legend
 
Posts: 2823
Joined: Sat Apr 24 2004 6:39am

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby Lobo » Mon Jan 16 2017 12:50pm

Lobo wrote:
projectego wrote:Lobo:

WARNING: SPOILER!


RC: Hope all is going well! Seems like that list of tasks gets longer and longer every time that I look at it!


I hope to make and post the back sprite by tomorrow.


Later than expected, but here it goes!
117_2_teste1.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Lobo

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 17 2004 5:31pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil

Re: SF1 Editor

Postby rubixcuber » Mon Jan 16 2017 6:07pm

1. Would it be possible to remove 'empty' level ups?

Possible? Of course. Easy? Moderately. I need to rule out cases where level ups should be empty (this happens when Jogurt levels in the unmodded game or when you max out exp at the level cap) and then loop through the list of stat increases that get passed to the message boxes and check if they are all zero and then I guess restart the level up.

But there would be some catches, like infinite loop potential. Say... if somebody maxed out every stat. And that would be trickier to deal with. I guess we'll see.

2. Would it be possible when purchasing a weapon from a seller for there be a prompt to equip the weapon immediately after the transaction is completed?

That may actually be surprisingly doable. Just, you know, getting pretty behind on the list of things you've thrown at me, heh.

3. Do you know if portraits #50 and #51 (duplicate Guardiana King portraits) are ever used in-game?

I don't think so? But I am not 100% sure.

4. If you import a map sprite designed primarily with enemy/alternate map sprite colours...

I'm not sure I follow. Importing graphics will not change the checkbox setting, yes. If you have the sprite set to not use the palette and import graphics that do, you should just have to check the box after importing and save?

5. Bug: When editing map sprites, the 4x4 pencil drawing tool works identically to the 1x1 drawing tool.

I've been aware of that for a while. I still want to improve the external editing flow over improving the little editor there.

6. Bug: Here's a big one that I haven't properly figured out, but here's the gist: Importing a new portrait #52 works perfectly. However, importing ANY portraits onwards will result in a borked colour palette...

I don't think that's a bug? Unless I'm misunderstanding. Exported graphics are only that: the graphics. They do not contain palette information. If you create a bunch of new portrait slots it just defaults to the palette of whatever you had selected and then if you try to import existing graphics into them without setting up a palette for them it's going to be trying to match colors against whatever is there.

If you want to like... move portraits between ROMs or create a palette from a bmp I'd need to make a tool for that or something.



Also as an update, knocked two more items off the character expansion list and worked on a few more.
rubixcuber

User avatar
Shining Hero
Shining Hero
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Nov 18 2008 4:36am

PreviousNext

Return to Shining Force

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 0 guests