Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 7:05am
by DomingoRules!
So, here I am, playing Scenario 2 for the first time, and I reach Balsamo. Look around, do stuff, and so on. Then I find Rock, and Waltz. After finding nothing to help them in Balsamo, I figure, "Okay. There was another town on the map, so I probably need to find medicine there." So I continue on, working my way towards Dusty to hopefully find some medicine for Waltz so the two of them can join me. After heading there however, the game just keeps forcing me farther and farther away from them, to the point where it drove me to look up when they join. Because surely the very first two new party members, who also happen to be featured in the instruction manual, and while you only have a force size of four, wouldn't be secret characters that are so easy to miss. Right?

:...:

:...:

:damnit:

I may need a spare Medical Herb or two to take on Varlant.

Edit: On the upside, my friendship statuses are looking great. With such a small party, by the end of Chapter 1 I already have three Trusted pairings. Not to mention keeping them bundled together for maximum bonuses is a breeze.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 12:04pm
by Cullsoft
Ooh, nasty. I'm guessing you don't have a backup save from Balsamo or Saraband to pick them up and replay the last battle or few? However, if you're in need of help for the next battle...

WARNING: SPOILER!


If it's any consolation, fist time I played Sc1 I completely missed that Hayward as a recruitable character, so spent half the game archerless until Justin saved the day (how often can anyone say that about him? :lol:).

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 1:24pm
by MCRT
Ouch, but such things could happen... actually all you need was either an antidot or a fairy powder to cure her paralysis. But yeah, with such a small force size gaining high friendship levels is really easy. I can already imagine how Uryudo tears through the enemy lines with the help of Medion's friendship bonus.

Cullsoft wrote:If it's any consolation, fist time I played Sc1 I completely missed that Hayward as a recruitable character, so spent half the game archerless until Justin saved the day (how often can anyone say that about him? :lol:).


That could not said often, but at least you could enjoy a tasty quick chicken in exchange :)

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 6:32pm
by DomingoRules!
Cullsoft wrote:Ooh, nasty. I'm guessing you don't have a backup save from Balsamo or Saraband to pick them up and replay the last battle or few? However, if you're in need of help for the next battle...

WARNING: SPOILER!


If it's any consolation, fist time I played Sc1 I completely missed that Hayward as a recruitable character, so spent half the game archerless until Justin saved the day (how often can anyone say that about him? :lol:).

WARNING: SPOILER!


The saddest part is that I wouldn't have missed Rock and Waltz if Dusty hadn't been visible on the map. In fact, after not finding medicine there, I thought, "So do I just need to go use one of my own Antidotes or Fairy Powders on her?" but by then it was too late because as much of a step forward for the series Shining Force 3 is, it's weirdly linear. If that town hadn't been there to tease me into thinking otherwise, I would've spent more time trying to figure out what to do in Balsamo, and eventually would have tried that.

As for a backup save, I did have one, but if I didn't want to miss things, I would've looked up how to recruit the characters in the first place. The backup save is in place not to go back if I screw up. It's as a safety in case the system memory's battery suddenly dies. That, and since I'm using a method that utilizes the Action Replay Plus to play the games anyway, it's a simple matter of resetting, then copying the save file to that when I'm finished.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 6:39pm
by MXC
Tough break as both are good characters.

But on the upside, you'll soon have the entire first page of this forum filled with your topics :lol:

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04 2017 7:19pm
by DomingoRules!
MXC wrote:Tough break as both are good characters.

But on the upside, you'll soon have the entire first page of this forum filled with your topics :lol:

The dream is slowly becoming a reality. :lol:

Getting by with so few characters though for so long has been interesting, at least. Makes it feel like a whole different game.

Edit: The friendship bonuses are definitely showing, as I'm only on Chapter 2, and already have a Soulmate. When I played through Scenario 1, that didn't happen until about Chapter 5. Weirdly enough through, my one Soulmate pairing in that game was Synbios/Masqurin, and the one I have currently in Sc. 2 is Medion/Syntesis.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06 2017 7:53pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:The dream is slowly becoming a reality. :lol:

Getting by with so few characters though for so long has been interesting, at least. Makes it feel like a whole different game.

Edit: The friendship bonuses are definitely showing, as I'm only on Chapter 2, and already have a Soulmate. When I played through Scenario 1, that didn't happen until about Chapter 5. Weirdly enough through, my one Soulmate pairing in that game was Synbios/Masqurin, and the one I have currently in Sc. 2 is Medion/Syntesis.


And I gonna cat...hm... answer them all :lol:

Yeah, I was also planning a fewer characters run in the next take of the game. I read some interesting posts back then from someone (I guess it was Sinful Force), who intentional leaved out characters on a insane playthrough to maximise the experience gain (and discovered that when Hayward gets killed you can get an additional quick chicken!).

The first caster and the hero are always the first soulmates in my games too. I guess it is something about the AGL order and that this team can 2 hit KO most enemies.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08 2017 12:06am
by DomingoRules!
MCRT wrote:Yeah, I was also planning a fewer characters run in the next take of the game. I read some interesting posts back then from someone (I guess it was Sinful Force), who intentional leaved out characters on a insane playthrough to maximise the experience gain (and discovered that when Hayward gets killed you can get an additional quick chicken!).

I kind of feel like that actually begs the question of what's more efficacious. A larger party wielding greater versatility, and the capability of swarming the enemy forces? Or a smaller group that can constantly maximize EXP gains, weapon proficiencies, and friendship bonuses?

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08 2017 4:51pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:
MCRT wrote:Yeah, I was also planning a fewer characters run in the next take of the game. I read some interesting posts back then from someone (I guess it was Sinful Force), who intentional leaved out characters on a insane playthrough to maximise the experience gain (and discovered that when Hayward gets killed you can get an additional quick chicken!).

I kind of feel like that actually begs the question of what's more efficacious. A larger party wielding greater versatility, and the capability of swarming the enemy forces? Or a smaller group that can constantly maximize EXP gains, weapon proficiencies, and friendship bonuses?


I would guess in the long run, the former will become better. But if getting soulmates would be as reliable as it was in the Japanese Sc 1, the latter would be a notable alternative.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12 2017 6:13pm
by DomingoRules!
Having taken up until recruiting Garosh to finally have a full (non-guest) party, I've come to accept that for whatever reason, I just can't find secret characters in this game for crap. So I've decided to look at it on the bright side that the next time I play the game, I'll have plenty of brand new characters to look forward to.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12 2017 7:10pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:Having taken up until recruiting Garosh to finally have a full (non-guest) party, I've come to accept that for whatever reason, I just can't find secret characters in this game for crap. So I've decided to look at it on the bright side that the next time I play the game, I'll have plenty of brand new characters to look forward to.


So with Penko you have 12 members? Ok, who did you get in chapter 4 & 5?

But yeah, always look on the bright side of life :)

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12 2017 8:22pm
by DomingoRules!
With Penko I have 13 (I originally said Penko, but then edited it when I remembered that Garosh was actually my 12th member). My party consists of Medion, Syntesis, Campbell, Uryudo, Zero, Hazuki, David, Hedva, Robby, Arthur, Garosh, and Penko, with my only reserve being Hera.

And looking at how far I am, my party size, and how many of them are secret characters, it really brings to light that this game went way overboard with how many characters can be potentially missed. I have nothing against a game providing plenty of secret characters, but that shouldn't result in it being so potentially difficult to just have a full party.

WARNING: SPOILER!

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13 2017 1:05pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:With Penko I have 13 (I originally said Penko, but then edited it when I remembered that Garosh was actually my 12th member). My party consists of Medion, Syntesis, Campbell, Uryudo, Zero, Hazuki, David, Hedva, Robby, Arthur, Garosh, and Penko, with my only reserve being Hera.


I also putted Hera into reserve most times...
But the point that she is only source of the resist spell when you train no-one on Ankh's is reason for me to actually change that in future playthroughs :)

OK, then you really only missed 3 characters (including Rock & Waltz) so far.

DomingoRules! wrote:And looking at how far I am, my party size, and how many of them are secret characters, it really brings to light that this game went way overboard with how many characters can be potentially missed. I have nothing against a game providing plenty of secret characters, but that shouldn't result in it being so potentially difficult to just have a full party.


Yeah, I guess they did this to spice things up or something like that.
The one character you missed besides Rock/Waltz is available based upon your actions at the beginning of Sc 1.

You will be able to get 1 more (optional :damnit: ) character in the last chapter. In addition, this one is something special ;)
But having 2 full partys will still be no problem for the final battle *small spoiler* :confused: :excited: :thumbsup:

DomingoRules! wrote:
WARNING: SPOILER!


WARNING: SPOILER!

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13 2017 5:28pm
by DomingoRules!
Missing Rock and Waltz is still annoying because I feel like it was more the game's fault than my own. First by it tricking me into thinking the solution is elsewhere, thus distracting me from devising the real solution that I figured out immediately after realizing the town was a dead end, then locking me from backtracking for 10 seconds to go recruit them.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15 2017 12:47pm
by Pappets
Before you enter Balsamo you gain a fairy powder somewhere. I think it's from an enemy commander when you finish him. How come you didn't figure how to save Waltz? Are you playing scenario 2 in japanese?

Are you still playing scenario 2? No matter where you are, i advise you to restart the game because in the penultimate battle you won't have enough characters in the reserves to make a 2nd battalion to win that battle. The 1st time i played sce2 was with the original japanese dialogs and so i didn't get Waltz and Rock. I also missed Bernard and, if i'm not mistaken, Hedoba also. I think i only had 2 characters in the reserves, being one of them David, and i couldn't win that penultimate battle. I had to replay the game.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15 2017 6:24pm
by DomingoRules!
I didn't figure it out because of the other town I saw in the distance. I assumed the answer was there, so I headed that way first, then the game locked me from returning. If that town hadn't been visible from the previous battle, I would've figured it out easily, seeing as how that solution immediately came to mind when I didn't find anything in said town. I also assumed that they weren't meant to be secret characters since they're right there in the instruction manual, so at some point the game would make me return to recruit them.

I managed fine with David, Hera, and my monsters (two wyverns, one of those red skeletons, a minotaur, a Cerberus, and a queen worm) with only two casualties.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15 2017 6:55pm
by Pappets
So you finished scenario 2 already? Great!

Still about Waltz and Rock, you have to understand that Shining Force 3, as well all SF tactical games, is an onrails RPG. You can't choose where you want to go, no matter if it's important to the development of the story or not, and you can't go back.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15 2017 10:55pm
by DomingoRules!
I'm aware of that, but that doesn't change that I didn't really expect them to be secret characters until after the fact, therefore assumed that linear progression was going to bring me back to Balsamo after finding the solution to help them in Dusty.

I thought about starting over right then, since it was so early on, but if I cared that much about the possibility of missing characters I would've looked them up in advance. It's just annoying that the game's very first recruits were secret when you start with so few, and to top it off it felt like forever before I got anybody else. Yeah, SF1 starts off with some secret characters like Gong and Gort, but they also throw you Mae and Khris at around that same time, and there's not really any trick to recruiting either Gong or Gort like with later secret characters. It did add a whole new meaning though to later story segments where the game keeps making a point of how small Medion's army is.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16 2017 2:11pm
by Pappets
DomingoRules! wrote: (...) was going to bring me back to Balsamo (...).


You know, remembering my 1st play of scenario 2, you're not the only one who thought that way. I thought Dusty Village was a dead end and i would go back to Balsamo and take a ship to somewhere or maybe go back to Saraband.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16 2017 7:00pm
by DomingoRules!
Funnily enough, much later on there's an HQ quote by Arthur where he mentions Waltz, and I was just like, "Waltz isn't here."

The troubles you mentioned with the penultimate battle though is definitely one reason as to exactly why the game shouldn't have so many missable characters. Even with only having a total of 14 characters, I still had missable characters to spare (those that immediately come to mind are Penko, Arthur, and Garosh).
WARNING: SPOILER!
Meaning it's very possible to not even have enough to fill a single party by the end, let alone two. Great as the game is, that to me seems like a seriously flawed design oversight.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16 2017 9:27pm
by Pappets
You can't have both Garosh and Jade. Only one of them.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16 2017 10:49pm
by DomingoRules!
I know, but what I'm saying is that I don't know if by missing Garosh, Jade joins automatically, or is still a secret character with some other requirement besides just Garosh's absence.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17 2017 12:28am
by Pappets
I know the answer but i'm not going to tell you. :excited: Go check it for yourself. It's funnier that way.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17 2017 12:50am
by DomingoRules!
I will someday. Since my next play through (which probably won't be at least until the Scenario 2 patch is in the fully completed stage) will be on Insane, I plan on looking up how to recruit all the characters in advance so I don't miss any again.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17 2017 7:34pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:Do you mean the groaning voice in the inn when you walk into one of the rooms? I figured that had to do with a secret character either in the current, or a later scenario, but I just couldn't figure out what to do with it. Then again, that may have been because of my last play through a long time ago. I believe when I very first played the game, I did figure it out, so I think I just took for granted that I would figure it out again, and therefore didn't dedicate as much time as I should have figuring it out. As such, I'm currently at the very beginning of Chapter 2 with still only four characters.


Exactly that, the solution is actually quite 2D-RPG like, but you can find it out the next time.

Pappets wrote:Before you enter Balsamo you gain a fairy powder somewhere. I think it's from an enemy commander when you finish him. How come you didn't figure how to save Waltz? Are you playing scenario 2 in japanese?

Are you still playing scenario 2? No matter where you are, i advise you to restart the game because in the penultimate battle you won't have enough characters in the reserves to make a 2nd battalion to win that battle. The 1st time i played sce2 was with the original japanese dialogs and so i didn't get Waltz and Rock. I also missed Bernard and, if i'm not mistaken, Hedoba also. I think i only had 2 characters in the reserves, being one of them David, and i couldn't win that penultimate battle. I had to replay the game.


You get a fairy powder in the treasure in the very first battle, but if I remember correctly an antidote works too.

Thanks to "your" special ability that becomes better the less characters are in the force, I also never had issues to get through this battle with only "you" and david (and a lot of pets)

DomingoRules! wrote:Funnily enough, much later on there's an HQ quote by Arthur where he mentions Waltz, and I was just like, "Waltz isn't here."

The troubles you mentioned with the penultimate battle though is definitely one reason as to exactly why the game shouldn't have so many missable characters. Even with only having a total of 14 characters, I still had missable characters to spare (those that immediately come to mind are Penko, Arthur, and Garosh).

Meaning it's very possible to not even have enough to fill a single party by the end, let alone two. Great as the game is, that to me seems like a seriously flawed design oversight.

Although in regards to Garosh, I'm not sure if Jade joins automatically if you don't have him, or if he himself is also a secret character.


Ok, such an oversight is quite rare, even in the last chapter all comments that are influenced by the absence of certain characters are accurate. What exactly was the comment?

I would not call it troubles or a flaw, I guess it is intended as the game itself helps you in this case and unlocks a unique feature of the penultimate battle: the enemies remove some their troops from one fight to another to fight the sc 3 force which always has at least 10 members. But as most "secret" characters of sc 3 are rescued in battles you intentionally have to miss them to have only 10 people in your force (and you can still recruit the 11 member in the last city).

I guess it does not spoil you when I confirm that Jade is no secret character, no matter if as enemy or as team member, the game forces you to always meet him, you just have to find out how ;)
After testing him in my last playthroughs I also can say that I prefer Jade over Garosh (especially on insane and when you have Bernard too).

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18 2017 1:05am
by DomingoRules!
I don't remember what Arthur said. I think it was some comment about either appreciation, or attraction towards her.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20 2017 7:39pm
by MCRT
DomingoRules! wrote:I don't remember what Arthur said. I think it was some comment about either appreciation, or attraction towards her.


I will try to find this out in my next playthrough.

Back to the small group size topic: If you missed Pappets at the end of Sc 2 he can also recruited from Medion in the final chapter. As Julian has Cyclops, only Synbios's army really remains with less than 12 members.

But as the Synbios army kicks major ass in a meat-and-potato-way this is no issue to crush the enemies :mwahaha:

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20 2017 8:54pm
by Pappets
MCRT wrote:If you missed Pappets (...)


I'm here! Who do you want me to tame? I never miss, specially when i'm equipped with the love whip :excited:

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20 2017 11:21pm
by MCRT
Pappets wrote:
MCRT wrote:If you missed Pappets (...)


I'm here! Who do you want me to tame? I never miss, specially when i'm equipped with the love whip :excited:


How about a wild Bulzome? :lol:
I just tested the love whip the first time one my last playthrough and I have to say it is actually really great :thumbsup: (as additional inventory item)

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20 2017 11:36pm
by Pappets
MCRT wrote:
Pappets wrote:
MCRT wrote:If you missed Pappets (...)


I'm here! Who do you want me to tame? I never miss, specially when i'm equipped with the love whip :excited:


How about a wild Bulzome? :lol:
I just tested the love whip the first time one my last playthrough and I have to say it is actually really great :thumbsup: (as additional inventory item)


Maybe the love whip might tame Bulzome :) .
The love whip has a very realistic mechanism: if you whip one of your friends they will lose some HP but they will gain attack defense and agility :excited: I think it's great!

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21 2017 12:07am
by MCRT
Pappets wrote:
MCRT wrote:
Pappets wrote:
I'm here! Who do you want me to tame? I never miss, specially when i'm equipped with the love whip :excited:


How about a wild Bulzome? :lol:
I just tested the love whip the first time one my last playthrough and I have to say it is actually really great :thumbsup: (as additional inventory item)


Maybe the love whip might tame Bulzome :) .
The love whip has a very realistic mechanism: if you whip one of your friends they will lose some HP but they will gain attack defense and agility :excited: I think it's great!


I hope so :)

Yeah, even if this sounds strange, you can even whip yourself, but in this case you lose no HP... :confused:

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21 2017 12:14am
by Pappets
MCRT wrote:
I hope so :)

Yeah, even if this sounds strange, you can even whip yourself, but in this case you lose no HP... :confused:


I'm starting to believe that those guys of camelot software planning have experienced some erotic fantasies. There is another item that is related to erotism in SF3 which is the power undies. Did such ideas for items like these just appered in their minds by chance? No way!

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21 2017 9:34pm
by drunkensailor
Bernard? I can't believe it. just looked it up and I don't think I've ever seen or found him in the lodge in scenario 1 and I have played through it at least 6 times

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22 2017 12:50am
by Pappets
drunkensailor wrote:Bernard? I can't believe it. just looked it up and I don't think I've ever seen or found him in the lodge in scenario 1 and I have played through it at least 6 times


You never saw him? :excited: I assure he's there but i'm not going to tell you where he is. :excited: Didn't you noticed that there is a room in the 2nd floor that you can't access and has no door? Don't go search on the internet for the solution, try to find him by yourself.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22 2017 1:43am
by DomingoRules!
Pappets wrote:I'm starting to believe that those guys of camelot software planning have experienced some erotic fantasies. There is another item that is related to erotism in SF3 which is the power undies. Did such ideas for items like these just appered in their minds by chance? No way!

Well, Shining Force did come from Japan, so anything is possible when it comes to kinky weirdness. With that said, if you'll excuse me, *floats off and hides somewhere until you're done looking for monsters to tame*

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22 2017 1:28pm
by drunkensailor
Pappets wrote:
drunkensailor wrote:Bernard? I can't believe it. just looked it up and I don't think I've ever seen or found him in the lodge in scenario 1 and I have played through it at least 6 times


You never saw him? :excited: I assure he's there but i'm not going to tell you where he is. :excited: Didn't you noticed that there is a room in the 2nd floor that you can't access and has no door? Don't go search on the internet for the solution, try to find him by yourself.

I just thought I could never enter that room. I must have played through it at least 6 times. wow

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22 2017 8:51pm
by Pappets
drunkensailor wrote:
Pappets wrote:
drunkensailor wrote:Bernard? I can't believe it. just looked it up and I don't think I've ever seen or found him in the lodge in scenario 1 and I have played through it at least 6 times


You never saw him? :excited: I assure he's there but i'm not going to tell you where he is. :excited: Didn't you noticed that there is a room in the 2nd floor that you can't access and has no door? Don't go search on the internet for the solution, try to find him by yourself.

I just thought I could never enter that room. I must have played through it at least 6 times. wow


Don't be ashamed. I played scenario 1 more then 10 times back in the 90s and i figured that those "uh...uh...uh" were of someone trapped or hidden in that room but i never figured how to enter in it. In 2004 finally i discovered how to do it in a magazine.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22 2017 11:11pm
by DomingoRules!
MCRT wrote:Exactly that, the solution is actually quite 2D-RPG like, but you can find it out the next time.

Like this says, though. It would be a lot easier to figure out if it were a 2D RPG, since secrets like that are quite common in those, but not so much in 3D games.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23 2017 9:16pm
by MCRT
I actually found him in one of my first playthoughs, but mostly because I always reviewed every room and never changed the point of view with the shoulder buttons as a kid.

Pappets wrote:
MCRT wrote:
I hope so :)

Yeah, even if this sounds strange, you can even whip yourself, but in this case you lose no HP... :confused:


I'm starting to believe that those guys of camelot software planning have experienced some erotic fantasies. There is another item that is related to erotism in SF3 which is the power undies. Did such ideas for items like these just appered in their minds by chance? No way!


I find it more irritating that the power undies help you to counter enemy advances :eyebrow:

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23 2017 9:20pm
by DomingoRules!
Regarding the Power Undies, the only thing that stood out to me was, "Why can both a human, and centaur wear these?" It also gave me images of Cybel running around in panties (because I was using them on her for a while), which I won't get into, but have fun with that.

Re: Well... Oops!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23 2017 9:46pm
by MCRT
I also always wondered about the centaur thing... thank elbesem that thousand is a male :lol: